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Detective Special and Plus P Loads

2K views 18 replies 11 participants last post by  mj2008 
#1 ·
First off, late me state that I have no intention of firing Plus P loads. This is simply a matter of curiosity. I have a 2nd issue (more about that in another post) and I'm wondering, since Colt rated the DS for 38-44, wouldn't it also be capable of firing Plus P?
 
#2 ·
I'm no expert, but I've been around a few years, and I seem to remember that Colt recommended returning the revolver for inspection after a certain number of hi-pressure rounds. I can't remember what the number was, possibly 1000 or maybe 3000. Some will tell you the modern +P loads are less powerful than the older ones. I'm sure at some point a comparison was made between modern ammunition and the old .38-44 loads so perhaps an internet search might prove fruitful. Good luck with your search.
 
#3 ·
This issue of +P ammo in DS revolvers has been discussed before and I recall that Colt did say that the DS could handle these rounds on an infrequent basis, but routine usage would result in damage to the revolver. I guess the problem would be worse for the older Cobras and Agents. I would not want to shoot +P ammo in either of those.
Let's see what some of our forum experts say about this subject. Your question is a good one to have brought up from time to time.
 
#5 ·
From what I've read, Colt doesn't recommend the use of +P ammunition simply because they were never tested with such ammunition as it wasn't marketed at that time. The post-1972 framed D-frames were and were cleared for such use with inspections after 3000 rounds and after 1000 rounds in aluminum frame Cobras, Agents and Vipers.

There's little point to fire anything but standard pressure .38 Specials from a 2" barrel gun...not all the powder will burn making for velocity loss, a bright muzzle flash and excessive recoil.
 
#6 ·
The +P 158 grain Remington lead semi-wadcutter ammunition is particularly fine in my 1966 Detective Special. Chronographs just shy of 850 fps from the 2-inch barrel and shoots to point-of-aim at 10 yards, effectively the same point-of-aim as is achieved with standard velocity 158 grain loads.

I don't pour +P through my Detective Special, but have shot enough for familiarization. The gun's fine for the experience. My hand's fine from the experience. Muzzle flash is not objectionable.

I prefer toting the Detective Special to the J-Frame Smith & Wesson and much prefer shooting the favored +P ammunition from the Detective Special rather than from a J-Frame Smith & Wesson.
 
#7 · (Edited)
"Proof" positive

For practical purposes, and potential life-saving use, a cylinder of commercial +P loads are not going to damage the revolver. Consider: +P is rated at far less pressure than the "proof loads" which Colt's fired in them at the factory - otherwise, no "VP" stamp on the trigger guard. But, what constitutes a "proof load"?

Per SAAMI regarding standard pressure ammunition, .38 Spl. rounds are 17,000 PSI, while .38 Spl. +P ammunition is rated at 20,000 PSI average. (Page 12)

Per SAAMI regarding "Proof loads", they apply the current standard of .38 Spl. +P "proof loads" which are rated at 27,000-29,500 PSI. Apparently, the +P proof loads are used in all .38 Spl. modern arms in the proofing procedure.* (Page 184)

Thus, in the case of a Taurus 85 ("J-frame") .38 Spl. I own, Taurus does not rate it for +P or anything above 17,000 PSI, even though they proofed it at 27,000 PSI.

* Current SAAMI/gun manufacturer data regarding "proof loads" may not correlate to historical pressure figures of firearms manufactured or proofed prior to the current SAAMI standards. Proof loads in prior decades may have been either higher or lower in pressure than the current SAAMI standard. See the attachment below for pressure guidelines regarding proof ammunition.
 

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#10 ·
Data for the S&W .38-44 load is rather obscure. Remington, who developed the loads, may have buried the data with good reason. Bullet weight and velocity is available, but those figures raise eyebrows when one considers that low-to-moderate strength top-break .38 Spl. revolvers of that era could chamber them. A 158 Gr. at 1140 FPS (as opposed to 750 FPS standard) is certainly into .357 pressure levels. From one American Handgunner article:
Heavy Loading
Elmer Keith really pushed the envelope with the .38 Special in the .38/44 Heavy Duty. He said he used what powders were available at the time, which weren’t very many, and settled on #80, which has been out of production for 70-plus years now. He used 10 grs. and shot hundreds of loads, then moved up to 11 grs., and while he said it worked well in both the .38/44 and the Colt SAA .38 Special, he decided to have it pressure tested. Sending them off to Peters Cartridge Company he found they were operating at 42,000 pounds pressure! Is that scary or what? The later .357 and .44 Magnums operate at much lower pressures than this!
We must bear in mind that only the large-frame Smith was thought capable of containing the .38-44 pressures involved, and within five years the cartridge was obsoleted by the introduction of the .357. Even so, the .38-44 Outdoorsman remained in production until 1966! The .38-44 was an apparent ancestor of the FBI developed .38 Spl. +P+ round (which was approved by exactly zero manufacturers). The late 1970s W-W .38 Spl. +P+ round at a reported 22,000 PSI, was infringing on low-end proof load territory, and was yet another stop-gap measure which simply pointed to the need for a more powerful law enforcement cartridge. Large Colt's, S&Ws and Rugers would eat them all day, but anything less would loosen up prematurely if one was fortunate.

Still, timing is everything, and in the late 70s the revolver was dying out while semi-autos were being embraced by law enforcement as well as the public. So, the 9mm and .40 S&W (and others) stepped in and rendered the +P+ happily obsolete. Original .38-44 ammunition today is as valuable to collectors as it is dangerous to compact revolvers - no matter their frame material. Here are the last five rounds I have left from the twilight of the quest for a more effective police revolver.
 

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#13 · (Edited)
. . . low-to-moderate strength top-break .38 Spl. revolvers of that era could chamber them.
po18, I'm wracking my brain but cannot recall a top break.38 Special from that time period. What revolvers are you referring to?
 
#11 ·
I still have a box or two of the Winchester 110 grain .38 Special +P+...generally called the "Treasury Load". It's what Treasury agents used for quite some time prior to the changeover to self-loading pistols. I've tried it in some .357 revolvers and my Python snubby absolutely loves it. I don't know how much velocity loss the shorter barrel causes but I can't argue with the accuracy it demonstrates. My 4" Python certainly does fine with the +P+ but likes heavier bullets better.

Different guns...different results.
 
#12 ·
I would like to obtain shootable quantities of .38-44 in order to conduct some chronograph tests, just because ...

I did chronograph some of the Winchester Western 110 grain JHP +P+ on an occasion. It was obtained from a friend who was employed with the Treasury Dept. .

It was fresh new ammunition at the time, back in the late 1970s. It gave 1120 fps from a 4-inch Smith & Wesson Model 10.

I'm not so keen on the use of lighter weight bullets in the .38 Special. I don't see a point in any jacketed bullet load in the .38 Special. Just personal opinion.
 
#15 ·
10-4 Thought I was in another brain fog there.
 
#18 ·
I have fired the 158 gr. +P Nyclad SWCHP loads in my 1990's Dick Special. It shoots them very well and would be my self defense load of choice were I to carry it. But I only ran a few cylinders full through it to see how they shot and what the recoil & blast were like. I wouldn't fire several hundred rounds of +P per year through mine. I have some of the Buffalo Bore standard pressure LSWCHP's which are supposed to be quite effective in snubbies but have not tried them yet. They might be a good alternative to +P loads without beating up the gun.
 
#19 ·
Before I retired there were a handleful of guys on my job who still carried Colt DS second generation. The carry ammo authorized was Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P. With qualification and practice exercises your talking about 150-200 rounds per year. Not that much and I guess the firearms and tactics section felt it was safe to use. It's a good round and the specs are not high for a +P round.
 
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