UnSafe Gun Practices - Shooting 38 Spl loads in a New Army Revolver

[COLTDAGUY]

I wanted to bring up an interesting PM I received a couple of days ago where a forum member asked me for my opinion on shooting 38 Special ammunition in a Colt 1901 New Army Revoler. I deleted his name from the posts. His two posts and my replies are shown below:

His PM:

I recently bought a Colt 1901 in .38, serial number 244 xxx, and I was wondering if it would be safe to shoot .38 special out of it.

(This is ALL the information he gives here!)

My Reply:

Hi there... I don't think ANY of these early Colt DA revolvers are safe to shoot and I do NOT think it is safe to use 38 Special Rounds in ANY of them either as they were NOT designed for them... SO I WOULD SAY NO!!! Don't shoot it! Just my opinion!

His Second PM:

Well, I just shot about 30 rounds of 148 grain wadcutters with no problems whatsoever. Anything to say?

My Reply back:
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Deleted] Well, I just shot about 30 rounds of 148 grain wadcutters with no problems whatsoever. Anything to say?


Yes... I think you are lucky! Maybe the 31st round will give you a bad case of frame in the face... you ought to review some of the threads on this topic posted recently on the forum where there is a good discussion on why this is a bad idea... I hope you remain safe...


I am posting this excerpt for a thread that ran here awhile back. The thread is titled “New Army Special .41 Long Colt With Questions” and it was an answer to Mike Hudson about why I do not recommend shooting these old guns.

Mike I hope you don’t mind my posting this, but I think it is important to let folks know the risks they are running when they shoot these old guns especially without having a gunsmith verify the safety of the gun… Here were my comments on this from that thread…
Bob



Quote:Originally Posted by mike hudson to clarify, i don't believe the army special was ever made as a .38 long colt ONLY gun. in fact, new army & navy revolvers manufactured after 1904 were advertised by colt to be suitable for any .38 cartridge then on the market, as the great bob best (who wrote the book!) pointed out today in another post.

Hi Mike,

I've been reading this thread with interest! :-) I think maybe there needs to be some clarification on why I say that I don't think the DA Army and Navy guns should be shot even with the current low pressure "cowboy" loads of today's ammunition. I personally am not concerned about the strength of the steel in the cylinders of the New Army and Navy guns being able to withstand the pressures of lead bullets for today's 38 or 41 Long Colt ammunition. I don't think they will be a "Hand Grenade" waiting to go off as you stated in your prior post. My concern rests with the fragile operating systems used in the New Army and Navy guns. All of these guns are over 100 years old! The steel springs are fragile and prone to breakage. Many of these springs I see today are already broken or kinked to the point that they barely function. A mal-functioning spring in the poorly designed locking systems of these old guns will cause the cylinders to not lock up tight and the gun has the capability to fire without the cylinders being properly indexed... I have seen many ruined barrels with split forcing cones from being fired this way and I have a couple of ruined barrels in my parts box now. This might not be too bad of an experience for a shooter with low velocity lead bullets but picture a "newbie" with that gun he just inherited from Grandpa that has been laying in a sock drawer somewhere for the last 40-50 years... The grease is hard and the action stiff and the cylinder has wobble in it to start with. Now he does not want to spend the time or money to have a gunsmith check out the gun and tell him what kind of ammo it uses or if the gun is in firing condition, so he jumps on the Colt Forum and get told here that "Oh Yeah you can shoot low pressure 38 loads in it" ... So he finds that bag of cartridges that was kicking around and pulls out some 38s and loads her up... instead of being old low velocity lead bullets it turns out they are Federal 110 grain 38 Special +P+ loads that the granddad had for his Python that got sold before he passed away.... well, that could be a problem ...You can see where this is going so I won't drag it out... my feelings are that guys like you who have sent their gun out to competent gunsmiths and essentially had them rebuilt will not have a problem... The guy who will have the problem is the guy who knows next to nothing about the gun and will be putting in a 38 Special because it will fit and was told by those forum guys it was ok to shoot .... That is the guy that is going to get a case of "frame in the face"... I personally think even one accident based on the scenario above is one accident too many and potentially can injure or kill someone... therefore I will not recommend to anyone that it is ok to fire these old guns... Now... getting to the questions you posed in this thread... Colt has changed the types of steels used in their guns several times in the period of the production of the DA New Army and Navy models. In one particular case it was because of a strike at a steel company and they could not get the correct steel to produce a government contract so they substituted a different kind for the contract. Consider the history of steel production in this country and how that quality has changed particularly from 1890 to 1910. The quality and strength of the steel varied considerably... I have a book on steel production that was designed for model railroader use in designing industries for their track plans. This change in quality is discussed there ... it even effected the strength of RR rail too... So there is this to consider when you are discussing using modern ammunition in these old Colts. Also you need to keep in mind that Colt even posted warning about using guns below certain serial numbers to fire the modern smokeless powders. I found these warnings posted in the shipping records of the Colt DA New Army and Navy guns when I was researching the Colt shipping records for my book. Also the parts that hold the locking system together are prone to failure as I mentioned above and if you miss the fact that it failed to index properly while shooting at best you may get a split forcing cone on you gun barrel and at worst, who knows... Also you have to remember that Colt changed the frame design in the New Army and Navy guns in 1904 so earlier models have a different frame style that could affect the strength of the gun. I have been doing research in the Connecticut State Library Colt Sales Books. I have hundreds of copies of the pages that interest me. There are many entries showing guns returned to the factory to have barrels replaced and sales of replacement barrels to dealers are all thru these records for the New Army and Navy guns... Something was causing barrel damage on a large scale... probably the fragile locking system of the guns caused problems … Also shown in the sales books is steel purchases and such that were ordered along with all kinds of other non-gun items ... quite interesting reading for me but it does give one the opportunity to try and determine when steel contracts were changed etc... doing that is further down in my priorities but it would be possible... Another thing that needs to be considered when recommending shooting for these old guns is how many times was this old military revolver that Grandpa left me refurbished by Colt or the Army? This could be a factor in how strong the steel is today in this gun... Was the barrel stepped on by a horse and bent, maybe damaging the frame with micro cracks not detectable when repaired?? How will that react to a high velocity load slipped in by accident...You should also consider the ammunition being used by this "newbie" ... Most shooter's I know have boxes and bags of mixed manufacture ammo sitting around ... I can see a couple boxes on my shelf now... I know what is ok to use in which guns that I own so there is no problems for me, but what about that nephew that knows nothing about guns and decides to grab that partial box of 38s that has a cylinder load of those Federal 110gr +P+ rounds from my police days and was in my duty gun that I purchased before we went to Autoloaders??? I would not like to think that someone was hurt or killed because I said it was probably ok to shoot that old revolver... I've seen the results of people doing that as my story about the 5 figure Texas Ranger's SAA that I told once before here relates... To me, its just not worth it... As I said one accident is one too many... So getting back to your question... Colt changed the frame style in 1904 ... there were even a very narrow band of DA New Army guns with "38 Special" marked on the barrel before S&W' lawsuit stopped that ... The later guns had the barrels reduce from .360 to the smaller .357 ... About 1908 the stepped cylinders show up in the DA Army and Navy guns. The mechanism is drastically changed for the Army Special models which makes them lock up better... I don't research the Army Specials as heavily as I do the New Army and Navy guns... The AS started at 300000 serial number ... I've never seen an earlier number. I have a couple of them right after production started... I have seen "COLT DA 38" on the barrel's of early guns so I believe its possible that early AS guns could have straight through cylinders and the COLT DA 38 marked barrels in them ... but a gunsmith checked AS should be safe enough for 38 Special ammunition.The reason I would say the AS is a safer gun is because of the change in the locking system, not because of any cylinder strength issues... Just my opinion here... Hope that helps set the record straight on why I say "Don't Shoot The DA Army and Navy Guns!!" :-)Bob

[COLTDAGUY]

I wanted to post Mike's reply and it was too long to go in the first post ...

Here was Mike's reply ...

thanks bob. and there's no question you're the expert here. i guess sometimes when i post i take for granted that the audience i'm writing for has at least some basic knowledge of guns and ammunition, which probably i shouldn't. and i too have seen new army & navy's, european automatics and loose shotguns that no one should attempt to fire.it's just that i enjoy shooting these old timers myself, research particular models and loads as much as possible, and sometimes even put them to practical use. the newest gun i own -- rifle, revolver or shotgun -- was made in 1938 and the best ones i own were all made prior to world war 1.the greatest friend a shooter of these old girls can have is a good gunsmith, and by good i mean probably not the guy behind the counter at the gander mountain closest to your home or even at some of the big houses that advertise in the backs of sporting magazines.as you've noted, the two colts i shoot the most -- a .41 new navy turned out in 1897 and a frontier da .45 dating to 1889 -- have had their insides completely rebuilt by dave chicoine, one of the best in the business.

A special "THANKS" to Mike for understanding where I was coming from ... THANK YOU Mike! :-)
Bob

[mike hudson]

hi bob...you remain the authority. i do what i do with the blessing of david chicone, who is about as good as it gets and -- he ain't cheap -- signs off on all my guns. as you know, i've got a few of the 1892's, 1901's etc. and i would no sooner shoot them without his ok than i would pull the pin on a hand grenade.

[Malysh]

I'm happy to see this posted!
I reported a seller from Florida to Buddy Hinton on Sturmgewehr a few months ago who was advertising a Colt New Army 38 and said "you can shoot 38 Special in this gun, too!

I sent him a private email first. I asked him if he knew that it's a dangerous idea to shoot 38 Special cartridges in one of these old revolvers. The jerk replied and said he was aware of that but since they will fit, what the heck!

It was then I reported him to Buddy. Buddy deleted his ad within a half an hour.

It didn't help this idiot had made some nasty racial remarks concerning requesting that he wouldn't negotiate and his price was firm in a previous ad. You can imagine the phrase he used. If he'd said it to my face things would have been a lot different. Buddy yanked that ad too, and I didn't see him on Sturmgewehr for a month. Then his for sale ad for the New Army popped up.
Anybody who wants to know who this guy is, PM me. I wouldn't buy a cap pistol from him!

[Sarge405]

My father use to say you can't teach smarts to a brick wall.

As for homo sapiens being the smartest on the planet, well thats left up to future debate.

Just because because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should do that thing!

[COLTDAGUY]

Boy... Just went to my PM file and I see I keep receiving messages from this guy on his ammo issues...

I don't know if he is trying to pull my chain or if he just isn't the sharpest tool shed... Here is his latest... seems he is upset because I didn't agree with the gunsmith that sold him the DA Army revolver and said he could fire 38 Spl ammo in it ... Interesting that a person would ask for an opinion and then get upset when he doesn't like what he heard... Guess its a "Kill the Messenger" issue here... But he still is firing more 38 Spls out of his DA Colt and bragging about it ... I do hope he continues to be lucky with his "adventures"... Here's his latest message!??

Re: Hey there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by COLTDAGUY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Simmons
Quote:
Originally Posted by COLTDAGUY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Simmons
Well, I just shot about 30 rounds of 148 grain wadcutters with no problems whatsoever. Anything to say?

Yes... I think you are lucky! Maybe the 31st round will give you a bad case of frame in the face... you ought to review some of the threads on this topic posted recently on the forum where there is a good discussion on why this is a bad idea... I hope you remain safe...

Nearing 100 rounds. Tick, tock. My local gunsmith appears to be more learned in the area. Consider a name change?

Glad you got a "good" gunsmith!?? Not sure I would like to use someone who recommends the wrong caliber rounds for a gun, but to each his own ... I hope your luck continues to hold when you shoot the gun ... You might refer to the post I made a little bit ago in the revolver section to see why I recommend not shooting these guns .... I'm not sure what you mean about the name change... it stands for COLT Double Action Guy??? Hopefully your luck holds longer with the gun than your guessing ability about the meaning of my name...

Name change as in you aren't all that. He said that .38 long was the original caliber, but it could fire special just as well. He'd shot it before it went into the display case with no problems.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And there you have it folks! :-)
Bob

[cubrock]

What a jerk. I believe he'd be on my ignore list.

Makes me wonder if he is the same guy who posted the blown S&W on YouTube, saying his gunsmith said Model 10s were made of castings for light loads only, blah, blah. Then, he banned me from his videos for speaking some truth into the situation. Guys like these two are not worth the time they take from us.

[Doug.38PR]

Something that came to my mind reading this thread. I noticed he said he was shooting 148 gr .38 Spl. wadcutters.

I have a conversion cylinder for a Pietta 1851 navy .36. It will allow the gun to shoot .38 Long Colt. To my understanding, you CAN shoot 148 gr .38 special wadcutters in it too BUT NOTHING BEYOND THAT in .38 Spl. (I've never tried it...and don't plan to.). I'm wondering if factory 148 gr wadcutters are lower pressure than factory standard 158 Gr LRN. That may be why your friend with the New Army still has a hand to type with. (I'm not offering this as an expert opinion that it is safe to do, just something I've read about and/or heard mentioned several times.)

[Doug.38PR]

What a jerk. I believe he'd be on my ignore list.

Makes me wonder if he is the same guy who posted the blown S&W on YouTube, saying his gunsmith said Model 10s were made of castings for light loads only, blah, blah. Then, he banned me from his videos for speaking some truth into the situation. Guys like these two are not worth the time they take from us.

LOL!!! I forgot about that!!! I remember that thread and those videos. He posted three of them. "My gun got blowed up. Gon' git me a Cowlt next tyme" "guuunsmith towld me der wuz sum air bubbles in dose owld Smeeuth n' Wessun guuuns"

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMUzFgX0Jk[/ame] "dis thang just blowed up at de range"

[bmcgilvray]

Hi Bob;

Thanks for the post which is chock full of new and interesting information about design flaws, steels, and production methods along with production changes. Also, the evidence of widespread problem with damaged barrels is new to me and is telling. How would such evidence be viewed if a modern manufacturer's records contained similar evidence?

I do shoot these revolvers to a limited extent to satisfy a curiosity (death wish?) about them and the cartridges for which they are chambered. The basic design is rickety but my particular revolvers are tight when compared with the run-of-the-mill examples encountered. Perhaps I have had a subconscious inkling of a potential for problems for I've never made a habit of firing these revolvers in double action mode, preferring deliberate single action use while carefully monitoring cylinder alignment prior to each shot.

I do see a very real issue arising from the possibility of misaligned barrel/cylinder arrangement with these revolvers. I'm enthused about these old revolvers but most that I examine would not be suitable for firing, at least until their timing issues were rectified by a competent gunsmith.

I would be interested to learn more of this business of different steels and the manner in which the frame was redesigned in 1904. I currently have models that fall on either side of that production year.

Bob, your efforts are appreciated. It's invaluable posts like these that makes participation in Colt Forum so worthwhile.