Another Army 1917 Question

[bofg]

I am a new here this month & I have a question about a Colt Army 1917 revolver. I have never seen one of these in person until today, I was looking a one that is for sale on consignment at a pawn shop. I was not able to take photos but I did write down the following, serial number on crane 215086 letter H above the number and a letter Y below. The butt is marked US ARMY 1917 No 61749. Barrel marked COLT DA 45 United States Property.

My question is about the cylinder, I understand these were 45 ACP with the moon clips needed, my question is this cylinder is what I would call countersunk and has no shoulders, if you try to load a 45acp it will fall straight through the cylinder. A 45 long colt will fit in the cylinder and the cylinder can be closed.

I searched the sight here trying to find images of the loading end of the cylinder but did not find any, they are probably here some where but I couldn't find them.

In searching the web I foud people mention that some of the early 1917's were straight bored, is that what this one is.

I am interested in working out a deal on this gun but I also don't want to buy something that has been changed into something else without knowing that.

The store has no idea what the gun is only that they are suppose to sell it, they are not into older guns.

Anyway if you can't answer my question without photos I will see if I can get some. Also please excuse my terms for parts etc., I am new to trying to describe gun parts.

Thanks for your time.

[Oyeboten]

I also have heard or read that early Colt m1917 Revolvers had straight through Cylinder Bores with no secondary Bore diameter where the end of the .45 ACP Cartridge would be. But I do not have any recollection about just how far into their Serial Numbering would stil be regarded as 'early' in this regard.

These 'Straight Through' Cylinder Bore ones can typically chamber and fire .45 Colt Cartridges as well as the .45 ACP Cartridges they were intended for.

.45 Colt Cartridges will enjoy or suffer what some would caution to be a 'generous' Head Space in this application. However, given that the .45 Colt Cartridge is a so-called low pressure Cartridge, and, modern .45 Colt Cartridge Cases are very strong and think at their base Walls and Heads, I myself see no problem or worry for their use in erstwhile amenible .45 ACP Revolvers...but I would say the use of .45 Colt Cartridges in these Revolvers would best be left to emergency or experiment, rather than routine, since Primers can back out little orback out and get slammed back in and appear flattened oddly and or end up causing a possible drag or even a jam, from how the.45 Colt Cartridge Case in this application can behave when the Head Space is 'generous'.

.45 ACP Cartridges require the use of 'clips', whether of the two-Cartridge, three-Cartridge or six-Cartridge kind...and should behave as expected.


One may also elect to use the '45 Auto-Rim Cartridge, which was developed for these ( Colt or S&W m1917 ) Revolvers, which Cartridge has a proper 'rim' and will chamber, fire, and eject without the use of any 'clips', and without Head Space related concerns.



Look carefully to decide if the finish or remaining finish is Original - the original finish on these had a sort of 'Brushed' appearence, and were not high polish...( as many of these Revolvers have been re-finished, and, this is revelent as far as their then decreased Value).

[haggis]

IIRC, the M1917's below about service number 30,000 had the unstepped chambers, and a large number of those had their cylinders converted to the stepped type before the end of the war. If the gun in question does not have stepped chambers, I would be suspicious that some "bubba-engineering" has transpired.

FYI, Colt M1917 with service number 61749 was delivered to the Government during the week of May 4, 1918, calculated from data in Pate's book.

Buck

[DCWilson]

Here's a photo of properly shouldered charge holes. This is Army number 41100, SN 185113.



It was not unknown for guns with weak or unattractive parts to have better parts swapped in to make them more attractive (and valuable) in the commercial market. For example, I have a S&W 1917 from the 1946 Brazilian contract that came to me with a yoke numbered differently from the frame. It was a bad yoke, and I eventually replaced it with another. It may be that your cylinder was originally on a 1917 with a lower serial number.

Not that I think that much matters as long as there are no alignment or fitting issues. I get the feeling you are buying a shooter with some interesting history rather than a collector's specimen, and if the price is right this could be just the gun you want.

[up196]

The early style 1917 cylinders were not bored straight through. They have a somewhat smaller diameter toward the muzzle end, like a .38 has, but no sharp shoulder to allow the mouth of the ACP case to headspace on. The ACP case will go in until it is about flush with the rear face of the cylinder and stop; a .45 Colt case will go in and stop with about 3/4" of the case protruding from the rear of the cylinder.

When you say it's "countersunk," do you mean the rear face is countersung around each chamberand the .45 Colt rim fits down in it a bit? If that's the case, it sounds like a .455 cylinder that has been re-chambered and fitted to the 1917.

[bofg]

Thanks for all the information, after what you guys told me and the photo I think the one I looked at has been changed, a long colt fits down in a recess. When the cylinder is closed there is no gap between the cylinder and frame at either end. Looking at the moon clips that are for sell on the web they do not look like they will fit because of the way the cylinder has a raised ring completely around the cylinder.

It is hard to explain what it looks like without a photo, it actually looks like a ring was added some how to the rear of the cylinder. From looking at photos on the forum in all the different calibers I haven't seen one with what appears to be this ring.

I think I will have to pass on buying this one, I thought the price was good if it were alright but I think something is strange about the cylinder.

Thanks again everone for you help.

[Oyeboten]

The early style 1917 cylinders were not bored straight through. They have a somewhat smaller diameter toward the muzzle end, like a .38 has, but no sharp shoulder to allow the mouth of the ACP case to headspace on. The ACP case will go in until it is about flush with the rear face of the cylinder and stop; a .45 Colt case will go in and stop with about 3/4" of the case protruding from the rear of the cylinder.

Ahhhh...I may have been mis-led in my appreciation for having had or known friends who had, Colt M1917 Revolvers who's un-stepped Cylinder Bores would accept .45 Colt.

Possibly these Cylinders had been modified long before, and, I just assumed they had been that way from the Factory.

[james47]

I bought a 1917 Army a few months ago and loaded about 50 200gr. SWC @ 5.5 W231 powder. When I got to the range the moon clips were impossible to work with...could NOT get the empty shells out of the clips. So I just loaded and shot without the moon clips. Had one fail to fire. Am I doing something that I will regret? By not trying some different M. clips? (I ejected the empty's with my fingernail or in some cases a short wood dowel.)

[haggis]

You won't hurt anything by not using moon clips, as long as the cartridges fire. You are just missing the real advantages of moons, the ability to recharge and unload ammunition quickly (almost impossible to get a cartridge stuck behind the extractor). Filling and especially emptying moon clips is better done with a good tool, like this one.

Deluxe Moon Clip Tool

You can fill moons faster with this tool than you can fill a semiauto magazine.

Buck