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Books vs factory records and common sense .

2K views 23 replies 8 participants last post by  ap3572001 
#1 ·
So You have a late 1944 Colt that according to THE book is supposed to have a P marked Colt 45 auto . barrel. The gun is 97-98% and all original. The barrel in the gun is C in square and P on the left side . NO Colt 45 auto is found on the barrel. According to THE book this barrel is correct for 1945 Colts not 1944. You ask for the letter and the Colt letter says that the gun was shipped in the spring of 1945. Which logically would easily explain the later barrel. With the letter accompaning the gun , do we go with THE book or with the Colts letter? PS. I am refering to Clawsons book of 1911's
 
#3 ·
I would go with the Colt letter...that would be the last word. Not to criticize Clawson's or anyone else's research, but research, while based on documentation, is also based on supposition and is open to interpretation at times.

The manufacturing date and shipping dates can be quite different. The pistol in question could also have been built on a spare receiver and completed at a later than manufactured date. Besides complete pistols, Colt made spare parts and sometimes, if behind schedule in production as they (and other wartime suppliers), would assemble products from spare parts production to help catch up with production schedules.

There's probably lots of potential causes for a pistol to be shipped later than documented production.
 
#4 ·
Once a Government contract pistol was shipped, that's the end of what both Clawson and Colt knew about it.It left the factory and factory record-keeping in one very specific configuration, and it's 'that' configuration that was recorded - period.

The 'minute' it reached its gaining unit, it fell into the hands of the dreaded American GI, Gyrene, Wingwiper or Swabjockey - who, for reasons known to NCOs everywhere - actually cleaned the thing, and in so doing, guess what, Sparky - some parts wound up getting swapped around, because weapons were cleaned en masse on ponchos and flat surfaces and not singly, by guys with dirty fingernails and scabbed hands, not in wearing white gloves, using Ren-Wax, in genteel reverence, with soft mood music playing in the background.

Unless it was Glenn Miller's 'In The Mood', of course...

This form of mass cleaning still goes on, because one thing about GI weaponry is that parts are supposed to be interchangeable.

Unless one finds a brand-spanking-new piece from the old DCM/NRA sales program from back when the new stuff was still in the Arsenals and not re-works - chances are extremely high that what collectors wonder about will still plague them until the End of Time, so since they're not serial-numbered items - go find the one you need, and swap it out.

After firing a box of M1911 BALL, it'll look 'just' like it ought to.
 
#7 ·
...so since they're not serial-numbered items - go find the one you need, and swap it out. After firing a box of M1911 BALL, it'll look 'just' like it ought to.
That is generally true, but anyone with any real experience and a keen eye should still be able to see conflicting wear patterns from the different barrels used in the pistols.

I wouldn't swap anything out to "correct" a pistol until is is absolutely determined that the part is not original to the gun. If there are no conflicting wear patterns, and the assembly date is 1945, it doesn't matter what the serial number of the gun is. The barrel is probably original. Then, only a thorough inspection will tell the story.
 
#5 ·
Does the factory letter include the assembly date (date of manufacture)? When a pistol was actually assembled has more to do with what barrel in the pistol than the serial number or the shipping date.

A pistol can be inspected by the right person and often one can determine whether the barrel is original, or at least if the pistol was ever fired with a different barrel.

One thing many collectors do not understand about Mr. Clawson's serial number lists is that they are not 100% accurate. He knew that and published the best information he could. There are strays that were assembled and/or shipped out of order that may display characteristics other than those shown in the book. That's why we letter some pistols...to have a better understanding of why?

Some pistols were held by the factory for months, due to repairs needing to be done. This led to a later assembly date. Assemblers used the parts available at that time to assemble pistols. Therefore, the pistol could be correct/original, but more information is necessary to say.

And even though many pistols have "correct" barrels for the serial ranges shown in the book, that doesn't mean the barrel is necessarily original. One must thoroughly inspect the pistol to determine the likelihood of originality. Mr. Clawson notes that at the bottom of the page...but for some reason, many seem to overlook that.

The 3rd Edition Clawson Collector's Guide is, by far, the best guide there is. But it is a "guide". The author knew that. It is the responsibility of the collector to use the information provided and do the necessary research to figure some things out. If Mr. Clawson had listed every stray in his serial number list, it would only confuse most readers, and you'd need a wheelbarrow to carry the book, not a large pocket or bag.
 
#8 ·
Some argue out of sheer ignorance. They don't understand what the books say, or what the letters say. If your assembly date is proper for the barrel, then it all is dependent on how the barrel, slide and receiver wear patterns match up. They not only have to match, but there can't be conflicting wear patterns, either.
 
#13 ·
Clawson's information came from the same records as the Colt letters, but once past serial number 800,000 he couldn't record every pistol since the shipments were no longer in numerical serial number order. He just had to take a high and a low serial number for each shipment, and couldn't possibly record everything.

Without knowing the serial number range or shipping date there is nothing to go on.
 
#16 ·
See (and actually read) Post #4.

This actually happened all the time.

Plus, whenever a GI thought he wasn't shooting well, he'd go to his Armorer and tell him, and the Armorer would reach into the drawer or .50-caliber ammo can, and pull out a new barrel and put it in.

Now, the 'trooper didn't have an excuse, and paid closer attention to his shooting...

I suspect no answer will be enough for you though.
 
#18 ·
Lol. Thanks. That is a good answer.

You see , I have been collecting, buying, trading, shooting, carrying guns for over 30 years now. Only recently I got interested in military 1911's.

I guess , I just look for things to make sense. When You pick up a minty , orginal finish WWII 1911-A1 that shows very little internal wear ( from shooting it ) and practicaly no exteranl wear and You find out that it might have a newer barrel , You would wonder why it is so.
 
#19 ·
The 'only' way it could possibly have stayed completely original is if it were stopped from being issued out, and instead, went immediately into storage, and then later in time, sold through one of the programs to a single individual or organization that took more care in maintenance than the military did, and cleaned weapons individually.

If that didn't occur, and it reached the end of the 'normal' supply chain to encounter actual GIs - all bets are off.

The 'big' parts - the slide and frame - 'usually' stay together, but the 'small' parts would wind up in a collective pile and eventually would be assembled at will, until complete, functioning weapons were returned to holsters or arms racks.

The part that actually 'mattered' - insofar as everyone was concerned, was the 'functioning' part.

Back when these were in general issue, spares abounded in the arms rooms and cages - everything from slides, barrels, screws, bushings and grips and 'all' the rest - everything but frames, be cause 'those' had serial numbers and were on the Property Books.

Why were there so many, you ask?

Because of three things:

1. - there was a 'perceived need' with the Combat Arms guys, because their weapons took a beating
2. - accumulation from previous Armorers over decades
3. - no one cared, so no one inventoried

'Then' - replacement frames came to be, in the form of 'Essex' and 'Crown City' frames, and suddenly, all those spares could be bargained for, and a guy then had his own '.45' - probably 'the' number one item every GI wanted to bring back to Fort Livingroom, even though it wasn't strictly 'GI'.

And then one sad day, someone (several 'someones', actually) in the Wisconsin Guard got caught selling spares at the gun shows ( 'lots' of spares - like 'tons' of spares and other 'stuff'), and Uncle Sam was somewhat miffed...

All of a sudden, if you wanted a grip panel, you had to turn in a damaged grip panel with the request, and it had better be the correct one requested - and thus was born a whole new sub-section of 'Property Accountability' in the Micromanagement Division...

But that's a story for another time...

The thing is - there are things to ponder, and then there are things to worry about - 'this' isn't one of those - not if the piece was issued - and neither is the 'correct' magazine, either - magazines were classified as being Class IX items, and were disposable, and in many of the later shooting competitions, the magazines were shot empty, dropped on the ground, policed up, reloaded by the ammo detail and issued out, so keeping track wasn't expected.
 
#20 ·
The 'only' way it could possibly have stayed completely original is if it were stopped from being issued out, and instead, went immediately into storage, and then later in time, sold through one of the programs to a single individual or organization that took more care in maintenance than the military did, and cleaned weapons individually.

If that didn't occur, and it reached the end of the 'normal' supply chain to encounter actual GIs - all bets are off.

The 'big' parts - the slide and frame - 'usually' stay together, but the 'small' parts would wind up in a collective pile and eventually would be assembled at will, until complete, functioning weapons were returned to holsters or arms racks.

The part that actually 'mattered' - insofar as everyone was concerned, was the 'functioning' part.

Back when these were in general issue, spares abounded in the arms rooms and cages - everything from slides, barrels, screws, bushings and grips and 'all' the rest - everything but frames, be cause 'those' had serial numbers and were on the Property Books.

Why were there so many, you ask?

Because of three things:

1. - there was a 'perceived need' with the Combat Arms guys, because their weapons took a beating
2. - accumulation from previous Armorers over decades
3. - no one cared, so no one inventoried

'Then' - replacement frames came to be, in the form of 'Essex' and 'Crown City' frames, and suddenly, all those spares could be bargained for, and a guy then had his own '.45' - probably 'the' number one item every GI wanted to bring back to Fort Livingroom, even though it wasn't strictly 'GI'.

And then one sad day, someone (several 'someones', actually) in the Wisconsin Guard got caught selling spares at the gun shows ( 'lots' of spares - like 'tons' of spares and other 'stuff'), and Uncle Sam was somewhat miffed...

All of a sudden, if you wanted a grip panel, you had to turn in a damaged grip panel with the request, and it had better be the correct one requested - and thus was born a whole new sub-section of 'Property Accountability' in the Micromanagement Division...

But that's a story for another time...

The thing is - there are things to ponder, and then there are things to worry about - 'this' isn't one of those - not if the piece was issued - and neither is the 'correct' magazine, either - magazines were classified as being Class IX items, and were disposable, and in many of the later shooting competitions, the magazines were shot empty, dropped on the ground, policed up, reloaded by the ammo detail and issued out, so keeping track wasn't expected.
+1!!! I agree 100% with Your first paragraph.

Unless a pistol was taken from final inspection at the factory and placed in the time capsule , we really dont know with certainty what happened to it between then and now.

PS. Of course if the descrepancies are obvious or the gun is obvioulsy refinished outside of government armory, its a different story.
 
#21 ·
When the NRA/DCM was selling the GI .45 in the 1960 time period they got into a store of Remington Rand 1911A1 pistols that were unissued and in the original shipping boxes from RR. 1911A1 pistols in unissued condition can and do exist. It really doesn't matter how, but that they did.

A now deceased friend use to make all the auctions at what was Red River Arsenal and now is Red River Army Depot. Parts were bought by the lot and in some cases by weight. In the surplussed parts there were always unissued parts for the 1911, M1 Carbine, and M1 Rifle that had been sold out of Red River.
 
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