Colt Forum banner

I need some expert opinion on "LUNCH BOX" 1911's

4K views 18 replies 12 participants last post by  Rob Greer 
#1 ·
OK did COLT ever ship 1911's with no serial numbers ???

And is the term "LUNCH BOX GUN" just a polite way of saying the gun has been messed with ???

An easy out when one has an early gun that has no serial number ???

Please enlighten me as I am of the belief all 1911's came with a serial number from COLT....Thanks RR
 
#2 ·
No...

The term 'Lunch Box Gun' usually refers to a piece that doesn't have serial numbers - meaning that the parts were smuggled out of whatever factory (because during both World Wars, several firms built Service Pistols) in the worker's lunch box over time,and before the serial numbering part of the manufacturing process.

It means the piece is hot...

If it's in reference to a military piece - 'think' about the time frame when they were being built and if it would have been worth doing the hard time in Steel City on a federal felony rap for stealing Government Property during wartime, then think of the patriotism of the worker of the era 'and' his gratefulness at having a job.

Kinda doubtful he'd be stealing, isn't it?

Besides, during WWII, there were a ton of WWI-issued M1911s on pawnbroker's shelves if a guy seriously wanted one, and almost any cop could get you one out of Property if you were a GI headed overseas or a parent with a GI son who needed some 'extra' insurance.

Times were different, back then.

But no un-serial-numbered weapons left the factory for regular issue, so if you're looking at one - don't leave your prints on it, and don't believe the BS...
 
#3 ·
Of course not all 1911 pistols were made by Colt. There were a lot made by other government contractors.
With that said, all government contractor .45 pistols had serial numbers and all Colt military and commercial pistols certainly had serial numbers.

The idea of the "lunch box" pistol is highly over stated. The idea is that an employee stole a pistol from Colt that had no serial number or other stamps.
This ignores the fact that before a frame is fully completed a serial number has already been stamped along with inspection stamps.
This raises the question of how exactly an employee managed to get a fully complete frame AND the slide, barrel and all other parts that had not been stamped before completion.
One reason this sounds fishy is that employees didn't have full run of the plant. Most were pretty well confined to their workplace and weren't allowed to roam around stealing parts.

While there probably were parts stolen and assembled into working guns this would have been a very, very rare occurrence.
Popular opinion would have it that a long line of Colt or other government contractor employees were in long lines carrying stolen guns or frames out the gate in a steady stream.
Due to the high cost of the guns, parts, and the laws, gun makers have always been very careful about plant security especially to prevent theft of dangerous and expensive weapons.

The reason you see pistols with missing serial numbers and US Property stamps is because they've been removed.
Often, people claim that's not possible to do without leaving signs of removal.
They base this on the obvious botch jobs you see where there are rough dished out areas where the stamps were crudely ground off.
This is not nearly as impossible as is thought, and someone who has some reasonable skills can remove the stamps and refinish the gun and leave no signs of removal.

So, while there probably were a few .45's stolen from manufacturing plants, these would be exceedingly rare.
The most likely situation is the stamps were removed by someone with the skills to do a good job of it.
 
#6 ·
Beginning in WWII the serial number was applied after the pistol had been completed. Serial numbering the receiver before the pistol was finished caused a log jam if the pistol did not pass inspection, and had to be rerouted or replaced.

This is an excellent example showing that the receiver had been stamped with the USP and NO., sandblasted, and phosphate finished before the serial number was applied.

Then it went to final inspection where the crossed cannon and Inspector of Ordnance initials were applied, indicating acceptance by the military.

 
#7 ·
This really has little bearing on the thread, but is at least somewhat related. During WWII my dad worked in the "Big Gun" shop at the Washington Navy Yard as a machinist. In his spare time he took scrap materials and made a large knife...the blade was a worn out file, the handle was made of aluminum, micarta and other materials. He did a beautiful job...the grip is nicely shaped and the blade and guard are either chromed or nickeled. He knew there was no way he could legitimately get the knife out of the Navy Yard as all leaving were searched. It turned out his supervisor who thought highly of him and his work, knew of the knife and told him he would drive him out of the Navy Yard and he was never searched. My dad appreciated it and always kept that knife...he eventually gave it to my brother who was a knife collector, and after my brother passed away I have the knife.

It has little value to anyone but me and I don't plan on letting it go. I have it mounted in a shadow box with an engraved plate with my dad's name and "World War II".

Now...I hope I don't have the FBI or NCIS knocking on my door about it!
 
#8 ·
The answer to the question as posted...

is 'Yes', but...
The only known such pistols were a group of 20 shipped from Colt to Springfield Armory in 1912 as completed but un-numbered, which were intended to serve as reference models for the Armory in preparing drawings, tooling and gauges for their own production of the 1911. When the Armory had finished this work, the 20 reference pistols were re-assembled, often with a mix of Colt and SA parts, finished with the Armory's rust blue, and serialized as pistols #125567 - 125586, inclusive. None are therefore known to have escaped un-numbered.

mhb - Mike
 
#10 · (Edited)
is 'Yes', but...
The only known such pistols were a group of 20 shipped from Colt to Springfield Armory in 1912 as completed but un-numbered, which were intended to serve as reference models for the Armory in preparing drawings, tooling and gauges for their own production of the 1911. When the Armory had finished this work, the 20 reference pistols were re-assembled, often with a mix of Colt and SA parts, finished with the Armory's rust blue, and serialized as pistols #125567 - 125586, inclusive. None are therefore known to have escaped un-numbered.

mhb - Mike
Good point! I forgot about those. I have one of those 20 that is nearly new condition. They really are a beautiful pistol. The SA rust blue on a Colt pistol really make them stand out in a group.
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/col...field-armory-both-same-pistol.html#post412120
 
#9 · (Edited)
There are examples of verified "lunchbox" and "other" pistols which never had serial numbers, and possibly even a few with serial numbers.

I have examined 4 Ithaca M1911A1 pistols which were literally new condition that never had serial numbers applied to them. I suspect all these pistols were stolen "lunchbox" guns. I purchased 3 of the 4 I've examined. I passed on the other one at a later date because I already had multiples.

I also have a very late production Colt M1911A1 that was produced right at the end of production that Colt has verified that they have no shipping or production records for. That pistol is serial numbered, but lacked all the other typical markings on the trigger guard. It also lacks the J.S.B. final inspection and Ordnance Acceptance crossed cannons. I sent for a letter on this gun when I acquired it. I got a nice letter back with other letters I received which stated they had no record of that pistol ever being produced.

When the Colt was produced, I suspect the bombs had already been dropped. Somebody at the Colt factory decided that pistol wasn't really needed by anyone to help win the war anymore. So they managed to get the pistol out of the factory, and didn't even leave any records of it even being produced.

The other example that comes to mind of GI pistols w/o serial numbers are the Remington-UMC overruns. They also never had serial numbers applied.

However, none of the manufacturers ever shipped pistols without serial numbers for issue by the military. I don't believe Colt ever shipped GM pistols for use without having serial numbers. The Colt Sample M1911 Pistol I showed on the forum a few weeks ago is one example that never had a serial number applied. It was manufactured as a sample pistol to help Remington-UMC get started producing pistols.
 
#13 ·
The Manchurian Colt?

Well, Norinco did make 1911s, too. They would make nice fillers for all of those boxes headed for the States.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top