.38 Colt Automatic Pistol Cartridge

[mi2600]

I'm confused. Is the .38 Colt automatic pistol cartridge the same as the .380?

[Kid Sopris]

no...The .38 Colt Auto was the predecessor to the .38 Super.

[kenhwind]

The .38 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol):
.38 ACP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[CWO4USCGRET]

some how when I bought a bunch of .38 Super I ended up with 1 full (50 rds) box of .38 Auto. Now I need to find a gun to fit the ammo!

[Ratzo]

some how when I bought a bunch of .38 Super I ended up with 1 full (50 rds) box of .38 Auto. Now I need to find a gun to fit the ammo!

I am looking for some correct headstamped .38 ACP brass. Go shoot it in your Super .38 and send the brass to me!

[Oyeboten]

Just to ramble a little...far as I recall anyway...

The .38 ACP Cartridge is remarkable in several ways.

Developed in the latter 1890s, for developement of what became the John Browning Colt Model 1900 Automatic Pistol, it was the first Hand Gun Cartridge in the US to have been designed for Smokeless from the beginning, and, was the first actual dedicated Smokeless Cartridge for Hand Guns in the US as well.

Original Ballistics were 130 Grain full 'Copper Patch', and, 1,250 FPS.

This was soon downloaded to be the same 130 Grain Bullet, but, 1050 FPS, where, it stayed, far as the Standard Loading was concerned.


Full Copper Patch, the old term for Full Metal Jacket, was elected to favor the accords of the earlier Haugue Convention, in which any sort of expanding Bullets ( such as plain Lead or semi-jacketed ) were agreed by the signing parties, to be no longer used in War, and, Colt had aspirations of their new Pistol being adopted by the Military, so the design of the Cartridge was to have the Full Copper Patch Bullet, and this persisted there-after in the general run of the various Ammunition Manufacturers' offerings, although Semi-Jacketed and RNL Lead Bullet and even Hollow Nose were also made and sold commercially it.

Many of the Spanish Automatic and some other Foreign Pistols designed for the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard ( aka 9mm Largo) Cartridge will also chamber and fire the .38 ACP Cartridge, and, some have had their ejector's slightly modified to do so even better, and will then usually have the additional added Stamp of "38" next to their original 9mm Calibre disignation.

The 9mm B-B was almost identical to the .38 ACP, but was loaded a little hotter, and, had a minutely different rim, but not so different as to preclude many non-modified Spanish or other Pistols to fire either, but those with slightly modified Ejectors appearently will fire the .38 ACP with more reliable ejection and or less stress to the Ejector.

Probably the 9mm B-B Carridge should not be used in the Colt .38 Automatics, since it is about 10 percent or so hotter...leaving aside whether to do so would stress the Ejector or not.

Similarly, .38 ACP ( and, one may assume, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard aka 9mm Largo - but I have not tried it yet to find out, ) will usually chamber, seat and fire reliably in many .38 Special Revolvers, just as they are, and, of course, people used to do this for one reason or another, or just to see if it would work.

However, the .38 ACP in Standard Loading runs about 26,000 PSI, which is of course roughly about 8 thousand PSI above the Standard Loadings for .38 Special...so unless one has a .38 Special Revolver able to handle higher than usual pressures with impunity, the practice would likely be stressful to the Revolver or should not be resorted to unless one is in a real pinch of some sort, and has no other option.


Thinking back on the old Spanish Revolvers which in form had emulated the Smith & Wesson 'Military & Police' Model, or sometimes the Colt DA sort of design, but, which typically were intended for .38 Long Colt, and were seldom regarded as having been of very good Steel, I imagine there had been quite a few instances where these Revolvers ended up being Loaded with 9mm Bergmann-Bayard Cartridges, and, probably not getting away with it for long!


P.S.

I rounded up some B-B Cartridges, and, tried them in a circa 1912 S&W 'M&P' .38 Special Cylinder, and, they seat firmly but just a little deeper than .38 Special would, so, likely would fire alright, but, with a little more Head Space than the rimmed .38 Special has, so, far as that goes...looks like it would work, but, might have less than consistent ignition depending on one's Hammer strike having to over come the extra Head Space aspect.

I might try it sometime in a Model 10 and see what it does...but, I do not want to try it in any of my really old ones.

[ralph7]

Just to ramble a little...far as I recall anyway...

The .38 ACP Cartridge is remarkable in several ways.

Developed in the latter 1890s, for developement of what became the John Browning Colt Model 1900 Automatic Pistol, it was the first Hand Gun Cartridge in the US to have been designed for Smokeless from the beginning, and, was the first actual dedicated Smokeless Cartridge for Hand Guns in the US as well.

Original Ballistics were 130 Grain full 'Copper Patch', and, 1,250 FPS.

This was soon downloaded to be the same 130 Grain Bullet, but, 1050 FPS, where, it stayed, far as the Standard Loading was concerned.


Full Copper Patch, the old term for Full Metal Jacket, was elected to favor the accords of the earlier Haugue Convention, in which any sort of expanding Bullets ( such as plain Lead or semi-jacketed ) were agreed by the signing parties, to be no longer used in War, and, Colt had aspirations of their new Pistol being adopted by the Military, so the design of the Cartridge was to have the Full Copper Patch Bullet, and this persisted there-after in the general run of the various Ammunition Manufacturers' offerings, although Semi-Jacketed and RNL Lead Bullet and even Hollow Nose were also made and sold commercially it.

Many of the Spanish Automatic and some other Foreign Pistols designed for the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard ( aka 9mm Largo) Cartridge will also chamber and fire the .38 ACP Cartridge, and, some have had their ejector's slightly modified to do so even better, and will then usually have the additional added Stamp of "38" next to their original 9mm Calibre disignation.

The 9mm B-B was almost identical to the .38 ACP, but was loaded a little hotter, and, had a minutely different rim, but not so different as to preclude many non-modified Spanish or other Pistols to fire either, but those with slightly modified Ejectors appearently will fire the .38 ACP with more reliable ejection and or less stress to the Ejector.

Probably the 9mm B-B Carridge should not be used in the Colt .38 Automatics, since it is about 10 percent or so hotter...leaving aside whether to do so would stress the Ejector or not.

Similarly, .38 ACP ( and, one may assume, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard aka 9mm Largo - but I have not tried it yet to find out, ) will usually chamber, seat and fire reliably in many .38 Special Revolvers, just as they are, and, of course, people used to do this for one reason or another, or just to see if it would work.

However, the .38 ACP in Standard Loading runs about 26,000 PSI, which is of course roughly about 8 thousand PSI above the Standard Loadings for .38 Special...so unless one has a .38 Special Revolver able to handle higher than usual pressures with impunity, the practice would likely be stressful to the Revolver or should not be resorted to unless one is in a real pinch of some sort, and has no other option.


Thinking back on the old Spanish Revolvers which in form had emulated the Smith & Wesson 'Military & Police' Model, or sometimes the Colt DA sort of design, but, which typically were intended for .38 Long Colt, and were seldom regarded as having been of very good Steel, I imagine there had been quite a few instances where these Revolvers ended up being Loaded with 9mm Bergmann-Bayard Cartridges, and, probably not getting away with it for long!

i am here mostly for an education.
good post.

[twaits]

I've bought several boxes of old 38ACP ammo over the past few years for my '03 Colt Pocket Hammers. Here's an old thread I posted questioning the various (confusing) things written on some of the boxes. I got very little feedback for some reason:

Is your 38ACP ammo REALLY 38ACP??

[kenhwind]

It is my understanding that the only difference in the intial marketing of the .38 Super was that the cases were nickel plated.
In other words both cases were headstamped .38 Auto, but the Super .38s were nickeled.

Like Twaits I had bought two boxes of Remington green boxed ammo marked .38 Auto, but is actually .38 Super, and the cases are nickeled.

Western .38 ACP & Super .38; I have a box of each. I took some pictures, but they didn't come out good enough. both are the older yellow boxes

The Western SUPER X (SUPER over red X) are labeled on the end flap 38 SUPER AUTOMATIC (HIGH VELOCITY) 130 GR. FULL METAL CASE. The back is labeled "This ammunition is designed for use in only in 38 Colt Super and Colt Commander pistols". Cases are nickeled headstamped W-W Super 38 AUTO: MV 1280 ft./sec. ME 475 ft. lbs. If the box is marked Super X I'd assume Super .38.

The Western X (Western over red X) are labeled on the end flap 38 AUTOMATIC 130 GR. 130 F.M.C. On the back is "This ammunition is designed for use only in standard arms, specifically chambered by the manufacturer for this cartridge". Cases are brass headstamped W-W 38 AUTO; MV 1040 ft./sec. ME 312 ft. lbs.