.38 SPL loads - thoughts?

[nightshade2x]

Loaded a few this weekend and curious as to what others have to say for my recipe. .38 SPL target load is mixed one-time fired brass casings with a CCI 500 primer with either a 158 gr. SJFP over 5.7 gr. Unique or a 148 gr. cast DEWC over 5.0 gr. Unique. The DEWC's are crimped in the crimp groove with the rest of the bulllet protruding from the case, OAL unimportant. The SJFP's are crimped exactly in the middle of the cannelure and OAL is 1.44 +/- .01.

Conflicting internet commando data seems to indicate that the 148 gr. 5.0 gr. Unique load is WAY too much, with charges running into the 2.5-3.5 gr. range!?! The 158 gr. load was taken from Sierra's #13 manual as their "accuracy" load.

I have to say the 148 gr. load was extemely tame from a 8 3/8" S&W 586 and VERY accurate too. The 158 was also very accurate and felt like a +P or a light .357 loading.

Above loads will ONLY be fired from a .357 (either N or L frame S&W's or Pythons)...

Thoughts? Any experiences with Unique in a .38 load? Am I running these too hot? I know the leading dangers of running a cast WC too hot. I find it hard to believe that 5.7 is ok for a 158 gr. bullet but 5.0 in a 148 gr. cast is too much.

Thanks!

Have fun and be safe!
Nightshade2x

[Kid Sopris]

First off there is a big difference in Jacketed Bullets versus Lead Cast. It directly relates to Drag. Lead creates more drag; increase the charge and depending on the hardness of the lead you leave behind more lead deposits and create a higher degree of pressure versus those smooth soft copper or brass jackets.

A lot depends on bullets shape as well. Ever notice that those Boat Tail shape rifle bullets can handle more powder versus the Flat Base?

Bullets of same weight but different configuration have to be adjusted to ascertain maximum loading as each bullet designs creates it own drag, thus pressure.

I would go back to the Research and Reading Department.

[smkummer]

I am running 5.2 grains unique behind a 158 LSWC and if memory serves it is pushing about 900 FPS out of my 6 in. officer model match. Very comfortable accurate load out of the OMM and Python and it tears up the cans and downs the metal plates out to 25 yards. That is max standard pressure and plus P in some books. Your load should be fine in a official police frame gun and any .357 but its no light target load. Max Unique in a .357 is 7.5 to 8 grains with a 158 grain but in a .357 case. As stated above, keep an eye on leading. I am usually just having to run a cloth patch with Hoppe's 9 and then a brass brush followed by a dry patch and the leading is gone. What I am finding is that the lead bullet can be pushed a little faster with less pressure than a jacketed bullet.

[nightshade2x]

Thanks smkummer for the reply.

Kid, not sure I understand the relevance of your post (but thank you for your input) as I understand all that you have said and have already done my R&D???

I like the 148 gr. over the 5 gr. of Unique. Maybe I'll bring the 158 gr. down to 5 gr. as well and see where I am.

My concern is that I am not pushing anything too hot...I like my face and hands and eyes (and my revolvers too) thank you very much .

Have fun and be safe.
Nightshade2x

[Dragon88]

As mentioned on the S&W forum, you are running 357 loads, not 38 special loads. It would be prudent to put these in 357 cases, but you can do what you want with your guns.

[Gatofeo]

Kid Sopris:

"Drag" is a term used to describe air resistance. It has nothing to do with interior ballistics.
I know what you meant, but perhaps a better term would have been "friction."
Generally speaking, lead bullets can be driven faster than jacketed bullets at lower pressures. This is because lead bullets create less friction traveling down the bore.
If you don't believe me, try tapping a lead bullet down the bore with a dowel. Now, try it with a jacketed bullet.
This greater friction creates greater pressures.
But you do reach a point, especially with revolver bullets, when lead bullets can jump pressures dramatically.
Take a very soft lead bullet, of pure lead or nearly so. Load it over a maximum charge. The soft bullet is blasted out of the case. When the bullet encounters the forcing cone (rear of the barrel), it is momentarily delayed (I'm talking thousandths of a second here).
With the front of the bullet delayed, and pressure continuing against its base, the base begins to splay out. Finally, the resistance is overcome and the bullet with its widened base is finally pushed fully into the bore.
However, this is done at a price: the extra effort required to push the widened bullet into the bore raised pressures. Sometimes, that raise can be dramatic, if not catastrophic.

Remember, the above scenario is with a bullet that is very soft.
However, a lead bullet made of a harder alloy will resist this deformation, the degree of resistance depends upon the alloy. A very hard alloy, such as Lintoype, can be driven faster than a jacketed bullet because it resists deformation and has less friction.
Lead deposits left behind are due to a number of variables: lead alloy, lead hardness, diameter of bullet, diameter of chamber mouth, diameter of bore, velocity, bullet design (hollow base vs. gas check, for example), angle of forcing cone, condition of bore (pitting, machine marks, etc.), type of lubricant ... the list goes on.

I much prefer lead bullets, of proper size and alloy, in my handguns. Most of my shooting is practice. For defense, my autos are fed jacketed bullets -- to ensure functioning -- but my revolvers still employ a lead bullet.

nightshade2x:

Your load of 5.0 grains over a 148 gr. wadcutter is okay, as long as you use a solid base wadcutter. Don't use that same load with a hollowbased wadcutter. Hollowbased wadcutters, especially the swaged variety, can blow off their forward portion when heavy charges are used, leaving the rest of the bullet in the bore as a dangerous obstruction to the next bullet.
But with cast, solid-based 150 gr. wadcutters then 5.0 Unique should be considered maximum. I would not use 5.0 grains Unique over a 158 or 160 gr. lead bullet as a starting load. Work up to it.
The same variables listed above can raise and lower pressures.

Here's a Fact that should be posted over every reloading bench:

EVERY FIREARM IS AN INDIVIDUAL
WHAT WORKS IN ONE MAY NOT BE SAFE IN ANOTHER

[ColtSnakes]

Load data varies a great deal depending on who you get it from. I find that older manuals often times have higher powder charges.

Anyway, I use a lot of Unique in .38's. I use 4.7 grains over a 158 gr. Berry's plated bullet and get an average of 812 fps out of a 6 inch King Cobra. That is the max charge listed in a Speer #14 manual for a regular .38. I have tried bumping it up about half a grain to the max listed for a +P and only gained about 10 fps on average.

My new favorite powder for most loads is Power Pistol. It meters better than Unique and burns very clean. 5.4 grains, the max for the regular .38 according to the Speer #14, gets me around 900 fps.

[nightshade2x]

Last 100 I loaded I used 4.9 gr. Unique over the solid double ended 148 gr. wadcutter with a taper crimp at the crimp groove (most of the bullet seated in the case). Have not yet tried them out.

Thanks for all the info guys...

Have fun and be safe.
Nightshade2x

[boatbum101]

Closest data I could ( Lyman ) #356091 150gr WC (HG50 style button nose ) 4.2grs Unique max 38special OAL 1.317" . Since your using them in a 357 & you have no signs of high pressures . I'd be tempted to use 357 cases just in case someone inadvertantly tried to use these in a 38 .

[bmcgilvray]

I've used a lot of Unique in the .38 Special with 158 grain lead SWC bullets.

My all-time favorite general purpose .38 Special load is 4.8 grains of Unique with the lead 158 grain SWC bullet. It clocks 858 fps from a 4-inch Smith & Wesson Model 10.

The old-time standard "maximum" load for Unique and the 158 grain bullet used to be 5.4 grains in Lyman, Pacific, and several other manuals. It yields 935 fps from the 4-inch revolver and makes a decent "home-brewed" version of the factory +P 158 grain load once known as the "FBI load."

Now Unique data has been watered down so much in some manuals that my old standby 4.8 grain load is considered over-max. It isn't and I'm still using it. My oldest 38 Special revolver has consumed many thousand rounds of that handload over 35 years time and hasn't fallen apart. So called "new, cleaner burning" Unique performs exactly the same as the earlier formulation in my experience.

In my view, Unique when used with 158 grain lead bullets in charge weights much under 4.5 grains is smoky, sooty, yields wide velocity variations, may burn incompletely, and is just generally inefficient.


"Conflicting internet commando data seems to indicate that the 148 gr. 5.0 gr. Unique load is WAY too much, with charges running into the 2.5-3.5 gr. range!?! The 158 gr. load was taken from Sierra's #13 manual as their "accuracy" load."


As Gatofeo says, it depends on whether the wadcutter has a solid base or a hollow base. The internet commandos may not differentiate between the two. Subjecting hollow base wadcutters to heavy powder charges is said blow their little skirts off, leaving said skirts subject to remaining stuck in the bore.

I never witnessed such an occurrence but I always heeded warnings to use mild loads with hollow base wadcutters. I've just finished loading 250 rounds of 148 grain hollow base wadcutters over 2.8 grains of Bulls-Eye.

Solid base wadcutters can be used with heavier charges if desired.

The loads you mention are sure to be fine in .357 Magnum guns. As always, work up loads carefully.