Getting a .38 Spl. 4 inch to outperform a 9mm or even a .40 S&W

[Doug.38PR]

I know it's not wise to try this in smaller D frame guns, but is it possible (without battering your gun to death, not to metion safe) to jack a .38 Spl. load up via handloading beyond the power, velocity and energy of a 9mm? Or even a .40 S&W?

They say the old .38 Special Hi-Speed or was it the .38-44 load was almost as powerful as teh .357 Magnum (which is far more powerful than the 9mm or the .40 S&W) Wouldn't a sizeable sturdy service revolver like the Official Police or the Trooper .38 be able to handle such a load? (again, without battering the gun to death for frequent fun at the range and testing)

Buffalo Bore I understand reaches about 1175 ft per second, but they use a special mixture of powders that nobody else can aquire according to their e mails.


I gues the bottom line of all this is the: How much can you jack up a .38 Spl. safely without going to .357 Magnum gun or cartridge?

[bmcgilvray]

Yes, it may be done...has been done. Whether it is prudent or not can't be said with certainty. The starting load listed for SR 4756 and a 158 grain bullet, as published in the Speer No. 8 manual from 1970, will accomplish your goal. This load has given 1100 fps from a 4-inch barrel for me. There is some discussion whether or not the load is safe and it did not appear in the Speer No. 9 manual. There would certainly not be any good reason to take the load any higher, that's for sure.

This load was subject to much discussion a couple of years back on the Smith & Wesson Forum, originating with a post by member Erich who gave it the moniker of "the Load."

Or, one can duplicate "the Load" and it's performance magic by simply purchasing the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain lead SWC-HP ammunition. The Buffalo Bore seems to exceed even the hot handload and gives perfect ejection and reasonable looking primers.

Heavy charges of 2400 as are published in older Lyman manuals such as the 46th will also get a 158 grain bullet well over 1000 fps from a 4-inch barrel.

Work up carefully!

[Frank V]

Yes, it may be done...has been done. Whether it is prudent or not can't be said with certainty. The starting load listed for SR 4756 and a 158 grain bullet, as published in the Speer No. 8 manual from 1970, will accomplish your goal. This load has given 1100 fps from a 4-inch barrel for me. There is some discussion whether or not the load is safe and it did not appear in the Speer No. 9 manual. There would certainly not be any good reason to take the load any higher, that's for sure.

This load was subject to much discussion a couple of years back on the Smith & Wesson Forum, originating with a post by member Erich who gave it the moniker of "the Load."

Or, one can duplicate "the Load" and it's performance magic by simply purchasing the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain lead SWC-HP ammunition. The Buffalo Bore seems to exceed even the hot handload and gives perfect ejection and reasonable looking primers.

Heavy charges of 2400 as are published in older Lyman manuals such as the 46th will also get a 158 grain bullet well over 1000 fps from a 4-inch barrel.

Work up carefully!

Bufflao Bore .38 Special is good ammo. I've shot the non +P 158gr lead SWC HP. Buffalo Bore lists it at 850fps, bbl length not listed. I've gotten 870 from a 2". I like it & it says not +P on the box.
Frank

[bmcgilvray]

Hey Frank;

As anyone who has chronographed snubbies knows, 870 fps from a 2-inch barrel ain't too shabby. The major manufacturers +P 158 grain offerings are hard pressed to achieve that velocity level from the shorty revolvers. Buffalo Bore manages to obtain useful velocity performance without being constrained to stick a +P designation on the box. That is probably a good, practical load for most any fan of the .38 Special for self defense.

[bmcgilvray]

I chronographed a series of factory .38 Special factory loads along with some handloads a couple of months ago. One of the factory loads tested was the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain SWC-HP load. Results were very gratifying. Performance was very high, data gleaned was consistent, cases extracted effortlessly, and primers didn't look flattened in any of the revolvers used. 10-shot strings were averaged for the results.

Smith & Wesson Model 10 2-inch barrel
MV 1063 fps
ME 397 ft./lbs.
ES 56
SC 24

Smith & Wesson Model 10 HB 4-inch barrel
MV 1145 fps
ME 460 ft./lbs.
ES 36
SD 15

Smith & Wesson Model 27 6-inch barrel
MV 1185 fps
ME 498 ft./lbs.
ES 41
SC 18

Smith & Wesson Model 14 8 3/8-inch barrel
MV 1286 fps
ME 580 ft./lbs.
ES 28
SC 13

Two different lots of Winchester +P 158 grain and one Remington +P 158 grain lead SWC ammo were tested and all thee paled when compared to the Buffalo Bore. For fun I'd retested some old Super Vel 110 JHP in these revolvers and the Buffalo Bore beat it in velocity and did it with a heavier bullet. Super Vel is red hot in its own right. The Super Vel gave larger velocity spreads, some flattened primers, and crumbly, half-burned powder residues but still was very speedy. Using a very similar bullet weight, the Super Vel 110 grain JHP gives most standard velocity 9mm 115 grain ammo a run for the money when fired from a 4-inch barrel.

I'd be willing to carry the Buffalo Bore in my post-war Official Police or a New Service for self defense purposes but determined to leave it out of the Detective Special or any older Police Positive Specials that hang around here. I'd like to test it in the 4-inch Official Police and the 6-inch Python just to see what sort of differences might be recorded between those revolvers and the Smith & Wesson guns.

[smkummer]

Chronographs are under 100 buck these days and its money well spent. I have been using older Lyman data for awhile now with no problems out of my E frame (official police, trooper and officers model match) 38 for a long time. I had anywhere from $175 to $250 into each of these guns. The original specs. for the 40 S&W called for a 180 grain bullet@about 930 FPS and that energy level is obtainable with older loading data that most likely exceeds current SAAMI standards. Currently I am loading a plus P 158 SWC load that is giving me about 850 out of a 4 in. gun and almost 900 out of a 6 in. gun which is doing everything I want it to do for range shooting at cans and metal plates. That load out of a officers model match with target stocks is a very comfortable load.

[Doug.38PR]

it makes me wonder if you could duplicate Buffalo Bore's formula if you couldn't safely push their powder mix past +P as handloaders do with standard powder and get even better velocities.

And better yet, do so with a FMJ round nose bullet.....talk about penetration

[Doug.38PR]

I was reading Bill Jordan's No Second Place Winner's last night and he has a chart comparing different handgun velocities.
.38 Spl. 158 gr was 855 out of a 6 inch barrel
.38 Special Hi-Speed 158 gr was 1085 out of a 6 inch barrel.

From what I've read, you can usually take about 100 ft per second more or less for ever 2 inches of barrel added or taken away. That would make Hi-Speed about 985 out of a 4 inch barrel. A bit more than Remington +P 158 gr, but nowhere near Buffalo Bore +P 158 gr

[Frank V]

Hey Frank;

As anyone who has chronographed snubbies knows, 870 fps from a 2-inch barrel ain't too shabby. The major manufacturers +P 158 grain offerings are hard pressed to achieve that velocity level from the shorty revolvers. Buffalo Bore manages to obtain useful velocity performance without being constrained to stick a +P designation on the box. That is probably a good, practical load for most any fan of the .38 Special for self defense.

I decided to try this load after reading the specs. on the box. They are not cheap, I think I gave just over $22 for the box of 20, I'm glad I did. After chronographing it, it's what I'm carrying. I just rechecked my data & it was 876fps not the even 870. The hollow point is almost large enough to drink Coffee out of, it's huge. I don't think anyone would be disappointed with this ammo.
Frank



Smkummer, is correct the Chrony brand is under $100 now I believe from several sources. It's the Chrony I use & I like it. I once had the opportunity to check it against a Pact. The Pact has a spacing between the sky screens that allowed me to place my Chrony between the skyscreens of the Pact. I got less than 5fps difference between the two chronographs. I really like the Chrony. The only problem I've had with mine is that it doesn't like direct sunlight such as a straight up noon sun. It gives faulty readings under this condition. I usually place it in the shade if I can or wait till the sun isn't straight overhead. I think if you try one you'll like it, & they won't break the bank.
Frank

[bmcgilvray]

"The only problem I've had with mine is that it doesn't like direct sunlight such as a straight up noon sun."


Yep, Frank

When I was out testing loads on Friday, the midday sun played havoc with my old Oehler for awhile, shining right down into the slots on the skyscreens.

I entertained myself by shooting for about an hour and returned to the chronograph after the sun had slid a little farther to the west.