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  1. #1
    Senior Member Ratzo is on a distinguished road

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    .25 ACP Shootoff

    A post on a past thread prompted me to contemplate the shootability of two popular .25 ACP pocket pistols. the 1908 Colt Vest Pocket and the Raven. Well I was able to get the two pistols out to the range the other day and thought I would post my findings. The weather was sunny and a little breezy. Breezy enough that sometimes it was difficult to hold the tiny pistols on target. Sunny enough that it was necessary to block the sun refletion on the 1908 so that I could see the tiny sights. Targets were shot at a measured distance of 5 yards, or as close to five long steps as five yards is. Groups were fired standing, offhand. Ammunition was American Eagle 50 gr FMJ.

    I experienced no stoppages with either pistol. The grip safety on the 1908 caused some issues however because of the difficulty of getting a proper target grip on the little guy.

    Shooting over an Oehler 35 chronograph showed average velocity of 715 FPS for the Raven and 769 FPS for the 1908. I did have one shot from the Raven not register. This would translate into 51 ft lbs. of bullet energy for the Raven and 65 ft lbs for the 1908. A distinct advantage for the 1908.

    Pistol cost was $285 for the 1908 and $34.95 for the Raven. Advantage Raven, but with 14 fewer Ft lbs of energy is it money well saved?

    The nickel finish of the Raven is a little more pimpy but I like blued firearms. Both pistols exhibited reasonable trigger pulls. The sights on the 1908 are well, invisible. The Raven's are reminicent of a patridge setup. Clear and bold. The test targets are shown below along with photos of the pistols. The left target is from the Raven, the right from the 1908.

    I hope this sheds some light on, and possibly brings an end to the great 1908/Raven, nice pistol/cheap pistol debate.

    .25 acp shootoff 006.jpg25 004.jpg25 005.jpg

  2. #2
    Senior Member Joe A. is on a distinguished road

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    Seems that a lot of the 25 calibers shoots very good. I have a 25 Browning that's amazingly accurate.

  3. #3
    Senior Member haggis is on a distinguished road

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    As long as you're hitting "minute-of-eye-socket", the energy numbers probably don't matter. If you hit him anywhere else, you'll probably just make him mad.

    My personal preference is this:
    My Beretta 418.jpg








    YMMV,

    Buck

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lawman67 is on a distinguished road

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    With the 1908 ,you will probably need hardball. My 1908 will not feed hollowpoints. My Colt 25 ,Astra Cub and Beretta 20 all feed Hornaady 35 gr jhp. These do around 875 fps,and equal or surpass the supposedly better 22 lr. Just recently an NYPD officer barely survived a 25 acp ball round tha lodged in the last layer of his kevlar vest. I hear plenty scoff at the 25 acp ,and tell you if you shot them ,it would just make them mad, but as of yet ,no volunteers. It may not be the best choice, but having one means you are not unarmed.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Lawman67 is on a distinguished road

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    Which Bond fans will recognize as the Beretta 918, replaced by the 32 acp Walther PPk

  6. #6
    Senior Member oberon is on a distinguished road

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    I have a 1908 that I shoot occaisionally. It works just fine and I have only a small amount invested. The only problem I ever had was a weird cooked off round that was probable antique. It shot flame all around the slide and action and lodged the slug just past the chamber. Easily remedied and no further difficulty.
    My entire firsthand experience with the Raven is limited to a triple homicide for which the shooter was aquitted. All were shot in the head at short range, and the 2nd victim got 2 rounds, which made an existing mess even more ugly. The second round essentially evacuated the cranial vault under pressure, and was overkill, and completely unnecessary. All were dead with one shot; the one with 2 in the hat got the 2nd round because he thrashed around after the first one, but either round was lethal. Vicitm 3 was shot in the street and dragged up the porch and eventually down the back steps to the back yard, where the first 2 were already shot dead.
    The aquittal came as a jury nullification based on the reputation of the dead, and skillful legal wrangling for self defense. None of the dead were armed, and none of them assaulted, threatened, or attacked the shooter. There was no question about the unsavory nature of their relationship; they had been 'business' partners to some extent. All involved were bad boys to a certain extent. It was a horror show, and the shooter got away with it even though plan 'A' was to kill the victims inside the residence. Plan 'B' was just as effective from the defense's standpoint. Bad case, all the way around.
    So.... My assessmant of the Colt is that it is a fine, reliable hideaway pistol, suitable for most occaisions. It fits well even with a tuxedo.
    My assessment of the Raven is that it is a crappy, shootable, and easily affordable murder weapon.
    It ain't the pistol's fault.
    That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

    Administrator: If this is over the top, please delete.
    It is all 100% true.
    I felt compelled to speak up about cheap crappy firearms....

  7. #7
    Senior Member haggis is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman67 View Post
    Which Bond fans will recognize as the Beretta 918, replaced by the 32 acp Walther PPk
    Some of Ian Fleming's best fiction - "M" had the armorer replace Bond's 418 because it jammed at a critical moment. That's the fiction part - 418's don't jam (neither do its predecessors, the 318 and the 1919). It is one of the most monotonously reliable guns I have, and it cost a whole $98.

    Buck


 

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