1860 Transition Richards 2nd Model Conversion at the gun show
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Thread: 1860 Transition Richards 2nd Model Conversion at the gun show

  1. #11
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    Now you can return, tell him everything you know that is wrong, and make an offer. Easily worth the 1200 as noted by Chaffee. There is one in my family, a +98% gun. First handgun my dad shot. Needless to say, I want one. Handled one at the CCA show last year, but didn't have the cash for it. That one I would buy until I found one better. Good luck and report back.
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  2. #12
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    I'm still reading and have a LOT to learn. I didn't realize how much I like these all of a sudden. What a great moment in firearm history! The transition from the "cap and ball" era to "cartridge" era, but also smack in the middle of the westward expansion and Indian Wars era. I have been researching to get my first (probably ONLY) SAA (I want an "Artillery" alteration military SAA) but these conversions are a really great part of history.

    I never take the Blue Book as gospel, but there seems to be a significant difference between the values they quote and what I found on the estimated values on the Rock Island Auction website. I guess I am trying to determine if the current selling price is just a "good" deal or a "get your butt over there ASAP and get it" price. I presume, the less matching number parts will continue to reduce the value. If I remember correctly, the loading gate matched, but I will definitely cut the zip tie and take a much closer look today.

    Does the pitting cause any concern or is it considered normal for a weapon of this vintage? I own zero weapons of this age and am way out of my depth, but my gut tells me this is a solid, honest example at a decent price.

    Does anyone have shipping information on this SN, 196033? I'd love to get a Colt letter for it.

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by artyldr01; 01-19-2020 at 09:01 AM. Reason: edit comment

  3. #13
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    According the Colt Serial Number look up it is made in 1871
    https://www.colt.com/serial-lookup
    Happy Trails
    Kid O'Folliard
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  5. #14
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    ca9062-richardstransmod5frame_1.jpgcolt2.JPG


    Remember, these are called, "Transitional's". There are other nuances. Note how on the Cimarron reproduction there is a flat piece of spring Steele with a screw that gives power to the loading gate while on the authentic pictured to the right the the spring is internal. Most of the real ones I have actually seen are like the reproduction. The ones with the internal spring are rarer. I have never understood why the, "Conversion Colt's" are not more sought after. I think they are fascinating.
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  6. #15
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    I went back. Couldn't make the trade I want so I have to sell a couple Enfield rifles to make it happen but she is holding it for me. Only came down to $1400. The loading gate matches. I saw no other SN / assembly numbers. I believe the hammer/frame area is correct. The action cocking action is nice and tight. The cylinder has very little play. It also has the original crosshatch ejector.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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  7. #16
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    All 2nd models have the external gate spring. On earlier models it will depend on serial number whether it's internal or not. Generally, the earlier the gun was made it will have an internal spring, later production guns (of all types) will have external. Open Tops, however can be either/or but all 3 of mine are external. I don't have the time right now to photograph close ups of mine but McDowell's book has good pictures and info.

    As to assembly numbers...2nd models are usually the last 4 digits of the serial number and on the arbor, gate, side of cylinder, and maybe another. The wedge may or may not be, the one on my 2nd model isn't.

    Edit: At 1400, I think you did fine. There aren't a whole lot of 2nd models around compared to first models of all sub-types. Curiously, my Type 2 (2nd Mod) is #186,xxx. That's a little early of a number for this model, but not un-heard of.
    Last edited by Chaffee; 01-19-2020 at 12:15 PM.
    'This is King Fisher's Road--Take the other one'

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallascowboy View Post
    According the Colt Serial Number look up it is made in 1871
    https://www.colt.com/serial-lookup
    I just looked that up. Weird that it says:

    "Year of Manufacture
    1871

    Model
    1860 ARMY (.44 CALIBER WITH NAVAL ENGAGEMENT SCENE ON CYLINDER)"

    Wouldn't a 2nd Model Richards be considered it's own designation rather than an 1860 Army?

    From what I can see there is no engraving / markings / SN at all on the cylinder. Could it all have worn off that much (seems unlikely)? As part of the conversion is it conceivable the original cylinder with engraving / SN would be replaced with a blank cylinder or is it more likely a owner replacement?

    Thanks again!



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  9. #18
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    Other than our family gun, I have only seen 3 of these guns. The first two had zero finish and major damage from rust. About 15-20 years ago I met an older collector at a local gun show. I described the gun, and he pulled one off his display. I went home and got the photos and he was able to identify the gun. His wasn't for sell, but he valued it at under $1,000. It was complete, numbers matching. At $1,400, you have an good entry level gun into the market. Minor pitting is to be expected. Any finish is a plus.

    I recently purchased the book on this forum for $100. So they can be bought for a decent price.
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  10. #19
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    Model 1860 ARMY (.44 CALIBER WITH NAVAL ENGAGEMENT SCENE ON CYLINDER)"
    Wouldn't a 2nd Model Richards be considered it's own designation rather than an 1860 Army?
    Not all had the Texas Navy scene. That gun did not.
    https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67...pth2419/m1/24/
    artyldr01 likes this.

  11. #20
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    Since these were made up of 1860's, they will letter as 1860 Armys. These were either converted from existing pistols or made up as conversions from new parts that were in the factory. A 196xxx number was made (as a percussion 1860) in 1871 or so and then converted sometime thereafter. That's why these will not letter as conversions, rather, they letter as the original gun. I have not tried to letter any of mine for this reason, but I do have a OMC Richards 5xxx that was made of new parts, that might if one tried. If anyone has a letter that states 'Conversion', I'd like to see it. Remember, conversions with low numbers, 5xxx for example, were made as cartridge guns from new and leftover un-numbered parts. High numbers (199xxx, etc) were converted from percussion guns. Another thing: the Richard's, Richard's-Mason's and Open Tops were being made at the same time.

    As to your cylinder, it could be wore that much or be a blank. Originally it would have had at the very least the assembly number to my mind. I think most, if not all 2nd model cylinders were new-made. Measuring the dimensions will tell you for sure. Because so many minor variations occur with all the different models, there are no hard and fast rules with these.
    Last edited by Chaffee; 01-19-2020 at 09:01 PM.
    'This is King Fisher's Road--Take the other one'


 
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