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1941 park RS

5K views 33 replies 13 participants last post by  Brushedblue 
#1 ·
Gun Firearm Trigger Starting pistol Revolver
Well here is something you don't see every day a 1941 park RS with original park small G barrel and I am not the only kid on the block with one ! I was looking through Karl K CD a week or so after I bought this one and could not help but notice that Karl`s 1941 park RS had a park barrel in it so I contacted Karl and he stated he had not looked at the gun in quite awhile and he would look at it over the weekend and get back with me on Monday with a full report and he did .So Monday he contacts me and said yes indeed his 740,810 has a park small G barrel in it and it is the original barrel as it matched in wear with the rest of the gun and the wear patterns matched so he kept it in even thought the books say it should be blued . Needless to say he was glad to hear from me with another park RS with a park barrel .He also stated that he could see blue under the park where the wear was and if you look at the right side picture of it the barrel appears to be blue what you can see through the ejection port and it was not until I looked at the picture of the top of it that I noticed the barrel looked park . So I looked at the barrel in mine real hard and noticed mine displayed the same things wear of the barrel matched the wear of the gun and the wear patterns matched and the pistol came from the son of the vet it was issued to who was stationed in Burma during the war and was in Chemical Warfare Division .The pistol came with holster mag pouch and 3 mag's and 16 rounds of 1941 WCC ammo . So if anybody knows of one Prepared in this same configuration I would love to hear from you with a serial number and I am sure Karl would too. Firearm Gun Trigger Gun accessory Starting pistol
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#2 · (Edited)
Well here is something you don't see every day a 1941 park RS with original park small G barrel and I am not the only kid on the block with one ! I was looking through Karl K CD a week or so after I bought this one and could not help but notice that Karl`s 1941 park RS had a park barrel in it so I contacted Karl and he stated he had not looked at the gun in quite awhile and he would look at it over the weekend and get back with me on Monday with a full report and he did .So Monday he contacts me and said yes indeed his 740,810 has a park small G barrel in it and it is the original barrel as it matched in wear with the rest of the gun and the wear patterns matched so he kept it in even thought the books say it should be blued . Needless to say he was glad to hear from me with another park RS with a park barrel .He also stated that he could see blue under the park where the wear was and if you look at the right side picture of it the barrel appears to be blue what you can see through the ejection port and it was not until I looked at the picture of the top of it that I noticed the barrel looked park . So I looked at the barrel in mine real hard and noticed mine displayed the same things wear of the barrel matched the wear of the gun and the wear patterns matched and the pistol came from the son of the vet it was issued to who was stationed in Burma during the war and was in Chemical Warfare Division .The pistol came with holster mag pouch and 3 mag's and 16 rounds of 1941 WCC ammo . So if anybody knows of one Prepared in this same configuration I would love to hear from you with a serial number and I am sure Karl would too.
prewar,

Interesting. Congratulations. Thank you for the pictures.

It would also be interesting to examine the parkerized barrel in 740810, to examine the "blue under the park where the wear was" effect that barrel displays.? Some believe, the phosphoric acid in the parkerizing solution would chemically strip all "bluing" as part of parkerizing the barrel. A partial bead blasted metal surface (matte finished) that was blued might give the appearance described by Karl with the barrel in 740810.?

Best Regards,
 
#23 ·
#6 ·
Interesting new information here. I like how both your barrel and Karl’s look exactly the same. Light grey parkerized finish similar to the finish on the Early parked pistols.
Most collectors would have quickly put a blued small G in the gun to make it by the book.
As time marches on we will certainly find more and more small variations like this.
 
#7 ·
Is there a reference that mentions Colt using a batch of phosphate/Parkerized barrels, or is all this based on finding a nice Colt with a nice Parkerized barrel? We have all found parts together that we know doesn't belong together even though their condition matches perfectly.

Colt has blued their military contract barrels since the beginning of production of the Model 1911 to the end of production of the 1911A1. With the change from heat blue to phosphate ordnance specifications called for a Du-Lite blue finish on the barrels, so why use a batch of barrels that didn't meet specifications?

You can blue over phosphate but you can't phosphate over blue, and why would Colt refinish parts already finished?

Small G blued barrel. Several blued small parts being used up after the change from blue to phosphate finish.

 
#10 ·
Johnny as you know there are many things we as collectors have found to be correct on these pistols that either is not in the books or is flat-out wrong in the books ,one thing right off the top of my head is the highly debated mags that belong in the 38-41 blued a1`s.The more I collect the more I learn and I bet we are all not done learning yet ! I will tell you the same thing I told Scott I have many loose blued small G barrels and I am not going to make the gun fit the book like others have done over the years only to find out later they were wrong by doing what they had done to the pistol it . The Clawson books and Dr Scotts books are the best info out there and if you were to ask either of them ( if Chuck were still alive ) they both would tell you there are things that are probably wrong in there books in fact people tend to over look in the first few pages of both books the statements both authors make as a disclaimer if you will saying the contents of the books are based on in Scotts books information in his book is based on documents found not by examples observed . And Chucks books have something of the same sort in the first few pages but Chuck based a lot of info on some subjects in his books on examples observed because there were no documents found pertaining to the subject like barrel markings .If this pistol were not so clean and correct and has a short list of owners I would think differently about the barrel but I am convinced it left Colt this way and I am not taking the barrel out and hope more come forth with one they own or know of one !
 
#8 ·
Matching wear patterns on a barrel, receiver and slide can be a good indication that a barrel is original. However, if we found a couple nice, high condition Colt pistols with Hi Std. barrels which displayed perfectly matching wear patterns and no conflicting wear patterns from different barrels... I still would not believe the Hi Std. barrels were original to the guns.

A phosphate barrel is, IMO, not an original finish barrel and would be considered incorrect...just as incorrect as a Hi Std., Flannery Bolt or Springfield Armory in a Colt pistol.

A barrel can be replaced in a pistol very early on, before wear patterns ever really develop. If an incorrect barrel is installed and the pistol is fired a bit, wear patterns will develop that would technically match the pistol. Chuck Clawson listed what were believed to be "correct" barrels for different pistols and serial ranges. His footnote at the bottom of p. 132 assumes you are using his information on that page regarding the chronological order of barrel markings. His footnote simply means if you are in a transition serial range where two different markings may be correct, the wear patterns can indicate if the barrel is correct (original to the pistol).

Previously, on p. 104, Clawson states "All barrels were blued. Parkerized barrels were either refinished or manufactured after the war." I've not seen any evidence to suggest that is not true. I have about 8 or 10 Parkerized RS pistols, and have examined several dozens over the years. All have had blued barrels.
 
#9 ·
Well we all have learned lot since the Clawson books came out by sharing information on the net shows ect . I have plenty of blued small G barrels laying around and am not making the gun fit the book ! I would be willing to bet the two Karl and I have are not the only two that left Colts that way and the barrels were changed to fit the book !
 
#12 ·
Well here is something you don't see every day a 1941 park RS with original park small G barrel and I am not the only kid on the block with one ! I was looking through Karl K CD a week or so after I bought this one and could not help but notice that Karl`s 1941 park RS had a park barrel in it so I contacted Karl and he stated he had not looked at the gun in quite awhile and he would look at it over the weekend and get back with me on Monday with a full report and he did .So Monday he contacts me and said yes indeed his 740,810 has a park small G barrel in it and it is the original barrel as it matched in wear with the rest of the gun and the wear patterns matched so he kept it in even thought the books say it should be blued . Needless to say he was glad to hear from me with another park RS with a park barrel .He also stated that he could see blue under the park where the wear was and if you look at the right side picture of it the barrel appears to be blue what you can see through the ejection port and it was not until I looked at the picture of the top of it that I noticed the barrel looked park . So I looked at the barrel in mine real hard and noticed mine displayed the same things wear of the barrel matched the wear of the gun and the wear patterns matched... So if anybody knows of one Prepared in this same configuration I would love to hear from you with a serial number and I am sure Karl would too.
prewar,

Again,---Interesting.

Is the barrel in 740810 definitely parkerized.? From above: "He also stated that he could see blue under the park where the wear was and if you look at the right side picture of it the barrel appears to be blue what you can see through the ejection port and it was not until I looked at the picture of the top of it that I noticed the barrel looked park ."

Can we agree that "bluing" cannot exist "under" parkerizing? (BTW, hot tank bluing over parkerizing seems to give a very dark (black) finish.) If the barrel in 740810 appears (anywhere) to be blue,---it may be just blued. And, there may be other explanations on why portions of that barrel look parkerized. There is a master gunsmith in the neighborhood, and that question..."Is it blued or parkerized?" comes up occasionally at the shop. There is a simple Test to answer that question,---a mild acidic solution applied to the item will tell. Dabbed on parkerizing it just cleans the surface (not recommended to clean vintage parkerizing). Dabbed on bluing it will remove the bluing.

So,...maybe Any item that displays Any evidence of "Bluing",---is Blued.? (And, it would definitely help to hands-on examine the item.)

Best Regards,
 
#20 · (Edited)
Yes he took the gun apart and looked at it because he had not looked at it in many years and got back with me on his findings as I stated, he was glad to see mine as well . I am not trying to say much of anything here just this barrel matches the pistol in every way even the color of the barrel matches the color of the gun spot on .. I think there was confusion when they switched over to Parkerizing and there may have been a batch of barrels that got parked and they may have spread them out as far as usage ? I doubt the Military would have rejected them for having a park barrel just like the polish chamber barrels that are in the 37~38 contract guns and let me add I have seen 3 or 4 39 Navies with polish chamber small G barrels in them and also a member of this site had 2 1941 RS with polish chamber small G barrels them they came straight out of the woodwork & were all correct minus the mags...again not trying to say that there were or is any serial number group or anything like that .I think it was a mistake and there may have been more that have been changed out over the years made to fit the book. I had a high polish commercial 1913 it is pictured on Sam Liskers site Coltautos.com and when I bought it the seller and I thought the barrel was wrong in it because for starters it was full blue with the course polishing marks that run parallel with the bore on the chamber and it has a small P stamped on the chamber that you could see through the ejection port . So I bought it and spent a couple years looking for a commercial barrel with the C on the hood extension and polished chamber and I found one a couple years later but about a year after that I got my hands on Karls CD and looked at his early high polish commercial 1911s and sure as %$#@ there were some early high polish commercial guns with the same looking barrel so I dug out the barrel that was in the gun when I bought it and it all made sense the barrel portion of it was high polish and the wear patterns matched and thankfully I did not get rid of it !!! I love the Clawson books but the barrel markings that Chuck shows for the early Government models is incomplete and wrong on some of them . So after that I had my eyes opened up on the early barrel markings on the early commercial 1911`s I only paid like $2500 for that gun because the seller and I thought it was the wrong barrel and that was close to the market back then and years later when I started to change over to Military 1911`s and sold most all my commercial guns the guy that I bought it from called me one day and ask if I would sell it back to him as he knew I was switching over to Military and I said sure I would and when he came to my house to buy it back I showed him Karls CD and had already put the full blue original barrel back in it he was blown away like I was and we have been friends every since then and have done trades and bought off each other for nearly 20 years now..
 
#14 ·
It is entirely possible that Colt accidentally parked a batch of barrels. And then used them in production. If you don't thing mistakes happen in production, then you have never worked in production. Notice the pin and link on the OP's barrel are blue so this is not a case of someone dunking the assembled barrel into the phosphoric acid bath later on. Only the barrel itself is parked so it is not a military rebuild barrel added later. We will never know the answer unless NIB pistols show up with the same parked barrel.
 
#15 ·
I should think two examples comprise a control group that is far too small from which to draw a conclusion at a variance with known, published specifications. If a few dozen specimens turn up, then I might be convinced Colt let a batch through. Until such time, I’m sticking with the specs Colt had in hand throughout the war.
 
#17 ·
Is the grip safety,also blue?

 
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#18 ·
Is the grip safety,also blue?
The pistol's not mine, of course, but I'm positive Johnny will confirm it is Parkerized. The 1st type Colt phosphate finish was pretty light colored, making the hardened phosphate small parts appear really dark compared to the finish on the slides and receivers.
 
#22 ·
It strikes me as unlikely anyone at Colt mistakenly Parkerized barrels. Barrels and magazines were always blued. Just because I run onto phosphate finished magazines now and then, I don't believe they came new from the factory that way.

As I stated before, it will be almost impossible to ever establish a credible base of evidence because there are so many refinished barrels in pistols and so many people who don't really know enough to determine if they have an original barrel in a pistol. And I'm sure there are a lot of people with phosphate barrels who'd like to think their pistols are original.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Well,---it is obvious some will believe that heat/charcoal or hot tank bluing can exist (the blue color) under (after) the hot tank parkerizing process!????

Is there anyone, that has spent time in the Hot-Room of a Gunsmith/Shop during Parkerizing, that believes some of the blue (polished surface or not) will exist "Under" the Parkerizing?

For those others that may still wonder, with a WWII 1911A1 manufactured barrel,---It Is Chemically Impossible!
 
#28 · (Edited)
735626 735972 735977 736501 736562 740xxx 740810 7409xx 741583 7420xx have been observed in the last 6 months or so since I bought my park 41 with park barrel . All seem to be correct & original awfully high number for only 6 months of just running across them or reported to me in a very short time
 
#31 ·
I do believe there are a fair number of early parkerized 1911A1 Colts that left the factory with parkerized barrels. Here is a 100% untouched example in my collection serial number 73614x. All correct. The parkerized barrel has matching wear marks. Notice the barrel link and pin are blued. Also notice the correct polished ramp on the barrel throat.

741537
741538
741539
741540
741541
741542
741543
741544
741546
 

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#34 · (Edited)
Gents, I have acquired another excellent original finish 1941 pistol with a parked barrel. The finish on this 742,000 range pistol is the correct light green early type with all inspection marks done after finish, polished feed ramp, burnished grip stud stakes etc. No doubt that it has not been refinished. The barrel also correct with a "small G", polished throat, blued link and pin. All wear marks match as well. I am becoming almost convinced that Colt parkerized a small number of barrels on early parkerized model 1911A1s.

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