Question to the FFL's here or anybody knowledgeable about the antique firearm class
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  1. #21
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    I hold a 03 license and sometimes will run into a seller who won't ship to me typically because of ignorance, but sometimes because of fear. When that happens I usually choose to give my money to someone else.
    Cheers,
    Walter

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by forward_observer View Post
    I recently decided that I need to add an original 1873 Springfield trapdoor rifle (2 band musket) to my eclectic herd.
    One place you can look is Simpson Ltd. in Galesburg, IL. I've bought a lot of guns from them over the years and have never been disappointed.
    forward_observer likes this.
    Berhati-hati di ruang platform. 🇸🇬

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcat94 View Post
    One place you can look is Simpson Ltd. in Galesburg, IL. I've bought a lot of guns from them over the years and have never been disappointed.
    Thanks for reminding me to check them. I have bought two Colt 2nd gen percussion's from Simpson's in the past, but had forgotten to look at their inventory for trapdoors. Unfortunately, in just checking they have some very nice 1884's, but only two 1873's--both beaters.

    I've spotted a few candidates on-line at prices I am comfortable with, but then there is one coming up in about 10 days in an on-line auction that I may wait on. The seemingly never ending search and the associated learning experience is part of the fun for me.


    Cheers
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  5. #24
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    "However, in searching I noticed that around one out of every three sellers required that their item be sent through an FFL. ".

    Texas is one of the states that did not attempt to override the Federal Laws with something more punitive and ridiculous. I have seen a number of sellers who require an FFL transfer, regardless of whether the gun was made prior to 1899 or uses an obsolete cartridge not available through normal venues. Some are just ignorant of the laws. Others moved in (invaded Texas) from a weird liberal state where the nutty gun laws began.

    I have also run into situations where an individual or private enterprise has consigned antique guns to be sold, but only with FFL transfers. This is usually driven by both ignorance and fear of the Gov-Mint. Once I had to do an FFL transfer and background check to receive an 1866 Winchester SRC in 44 rimfire with many missing parts (including the firing pin!). I told my receiving FFL dealer "Does this feel stupid, or what"?
    Last edited by victorio1sw; 04-12-2019 at 09:13 PM.

  6. #25
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    I mentioned buying two Colt 2nd gen percussion revolvers from Simpsons LTD in post #23. The first was maybe 3 years ago. I had purchased two different models at that same time and they shipped both to my door. Their listing said the they had to go through an FFL because of some Illinois state law that does not recognize a modern muzzle loader as an antique. However, when I called them to order, they told me it that was a mistake and that they would not have to go to a local FFL.

    Consequently, they were shipped to my door. Unfortunately, I had to return one since it was locked up from the go. It was NIB and had never been cocked. They were great about the return, sent me a prepaid return label and credited my card immediately.

    Then, a year later, I was still short one model to make a set of all the standard 2nd gen black powder models, and Simpson's had the right one for the right price. This time when I called they informed me that I had to have it sent to a local FFL. I asked them if Illinois law changed since I had bought the previous pistol and the guy told me it had not, but that they had misinterpreted the confusing state law the time before and had been informed since of their error.

    My FFL was a bit confused about it too, until I told her about the Illinois state law. Of course she didn't care since it was an quick $30 for her. I guess the $30 was a cheap price to pay for all of the criminal activity it eliminates. I know it certainly made me less of a criminal.
    victorio1sw likes this.
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  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by forward_observer View Post
    I mentioned buying two Colt 2nd gen percussion revolvers from Simpsons LTD in post #23. The first was maybe 3 years ago. I had purchased two different models at that same time and they shipped both to my door. Their listing said the they had to go through an FFL because of some Illinois state law that does not recognize a modern muzzle loader as an antique. However, when I called them to order, they told me it that was a mistake and that they would not have to go to a local FFL.

    Consequently, they were shipped to my door. Unfortunately, I had to return one since it was locked up from the go. It was NIB and had never been cocked. They were great about the return, sent me a prepaid return label and credited my card immediately.

    Then, a year later, I was still short one model to make a set of all the standard 2nd gen black powder models, and Simpson's had the right one for the right price. This time when I called they informed me that I had to have it sent to a local FFL. I asked them if Illinois law changed since I had bought the previous pistol and the guy told me it had not, but that they had misinterpreted the confusing state law the time before and had been informed since of their error.

    My FFL was a bit confused about it too, until I told her about the Illinois state law. Of course she didn't care since it was an quick $30 for her. I guess the $30 was a cheap price to pay for all of the criminal activity it eliminates. I know it certainly made me less of a criminal.

    Gun Laws, like Tax Laws, are clear as Mud. They wrote them that way.

  8. #27
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    Can anyone post a link where the ATF says that any gun made in or before 1898 is an antique? I just stumbled around in their site for 30 minutes and I kept running into a statement that talked about guns that were flintlocks or percussions were considered antiques as long as they were made in 1898 and before but I didn't see the statement that said a gun was exempt just because it was made in or before 1898. It reads like if it shoots ammunition that is readily available that it doesn't matter when a gun was manufactured.

    Sign me confused. I'm seeing more and more sellers on GB and other sites that FFL everything.
    Always interested in adding nice, original or interesting pre 1940 single actions to my private collection. Contact me via PM.

  9. #28
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    The portion of the gun control act of 1968 concerning antique firearms

    Antique firearm means—

    (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignitionsystem) manufactured in or before1898; or

    (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if suchreplica—(i) is not designed or redesignedfor using rimfire or conventionalcenterfire fixed ammunition, or(ii) uses rimfire or conventionalcenterfire fixed ammunition whichis no longer manufactured in theUnited States and which is notreadily available in the ordinarychannels of commercial trade; or

    (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to useblack powder, or a black powdersubstitute, and which cannot usefixed ammunition. For purposes ofthis subparagraph, the term "antiquefirearm" shall not include any weaponwhich incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon,or any muzzle loading weapon whichcan be readily converted to fire fixedammunition by replacing the barrel,bolt, breechblock, or any combinationthereof.


    Note: This does not apply to any guns that might be also covered by portions of the NFA of 1934--such as the fully automatic 1895 Colt-Browning machine gun.

    Section (A) is independent of the the other clauses--meaning any firearm made in or before 1898, is considered an antique and does not require an FFL. I am not sure why they went on to mention matchlock, flintlock, or percussion since this appears to be just an example clause, which tends to confuse people into thinking that cartridge guns are excluded.

    Section (B) is only pertaining to modern replicas of antique guns. If they are muzzleloading replicas, they are treated the same as any antique. However, if they use readily available fixed ammunition and were produced after 1898 they are no longer antiques.

    Section (C) talks about guns that can be converted from muzzle loaders to fire fixed ammo.

    Thus, a Winchester 1894 produced just before midnight, Dec 31st, 1898 is an antique. and one produced one minute after midnight becomes a modern firearm--no matter who produced it--whether Winchester, Winchester/Miroku, or Uberti.


    The Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986---sometimes referred to as the updated NFA, has a different definition of an antique which excludes any cartridge firing gun as an antique regardless of manufacture date. However, if I am interpreting the updated law correctly, this definition only has to do with those types of firearms dealt with in the original NFA of 1934, i.e, short barreled rifles and sawed off shotguns.

    Here is the description from the ATF and as you will see all examples seem to concern the shortening of the barrels.
    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...itions-antique


    When I do a search on Google for definition of an antique firearm, I get the description in the link above. However I do not think that is the applicable description for normal antique firearms.

    Be advised though, these are my interpretations and I am certainly no expert plus I have never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

    Cheers
    Last edited by forward_observer; 08-17-2019 at 08:25 PM.
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  10. #29
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    Thanks for the explanation. As it was said above....the ATF appears to be cut out of the same cloth as the IRS.....their verbage leaves one scratching their heads.

    I'm going to see if the ATF has a "contact us" and ask my question and see what kind of answer I get. I bet I get a link to that

    "(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignitionsystem) manufactured in or before1898; or

    (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if suchreplica–(i) is not designed or redesignedfor using rimfire or conventionalcenterfire fixed ammunition, or(ii) uses rimfire or conventionalcenterfire fixed ammunition whichis no longer manufactured in theUnited States and which is notreadily available in the ordinarychannels of commercial trade; or

    (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to useblack powder, or a black powdersubstitute, and which cannot usefixed ammunition. For purposes ofthis subparagraph, the term "antiquefirearm" shall not include any weaponwhich incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon,or any muzzle loading weapon whichcan be readily converted to fire fixedammunition by replacing the barrel,bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

    which only leaves one scratching their heads!
    Always interested in adding nice, original or interesting pre 1940 single actions to my private collection. Contact me via PM.

  11. #30
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    Yes the FFL laws are written to confuse but the USPS rules on legal shipments of antique pistols is even worse!
    tdennis


 
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