Colt Forum banner

Thoughts on Early Civilian

3K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  Dalfort 
#1 ·
Whats your analysis of this SAA?



















 
See less See more
9
#3 ·
Additional comment: I once owned an old SAA that appeared to have original nickel finish, but the
Colt letter said it was shipped to Hartley & Graham as a blue/CC gun. Most exerts who viewed my
SAA felt that H&G had probably refinished the gun to fit an order from a customer.
With your, gun a company like H&G could have changed barrels in order to match an order from
a customer. That might explain the dual numbering on the barrel.

Likewise, they may have switched e-rod housings. Who knows?
 
#4 ·
Looks to me like someone swapped the barrel and then stamped it to match the frame.

Notice it was done so the number could be partially seen with the ejector housing mounted....you would never know without pulling the housing that it had been restamped...and why would you pull it if the "correct" number is partially visible?????
 
#22 ·
Looks to me like someone swapped the barrel and then stamped it to match the frame.

Notice it was done so the number could be partially seen with the ejector housing mounted....you would never know without pulling the housing that it had been restamped...and why would you pull it if the "correct" number is partially visib
Many early condemned military parts were used up on civilian guns. Early 3 and 4 digit barrels had the number stamped above the ejector, sometimes half way. I wouldn't be so quick to disqualify this gun as altered. Those New York dealers in the 1870s were scrambling for these "strap" pistols and took what they could get, and did renickel to satisfy demand. Colt offered dealers discounts on many guns due to wear if, for example, they were salemans samples. J.P> Lower bought dozens like this at discount that had slight wear.

JP
 
#5 ·
I also am unable to comment on the originality of the nickel finish, but, if I had to guess, I think it is a very old renickel. If the barrel has been swapped out at some point, at least it was swapped out with a barrel appropriate to the frame. The frame number is 20201, and italic barrels, like this firearm has, were in use until approximately serial number 22,000.
 
#6 ·
Early military barrels sometimes had their serial number partially visible above the housing, or completely exposed above the housing. The "P" on the barrel indicates previous government inspection. As others have said, probably a condemned barrel used on a civilian frame but numbered to match. I have seen that as well and it is original factory work.

JP
 
#9 · (Edited)
I can't say for sure about the nickel finish other than it looks original, but easy enough to confirm with a letter.

However, other than the finish, I believe this gun could be completely original as it left the factory including the barrel and ejector rod housing! The gun is numbered in the transition serial range from studded housing to non-studded. The use of rejected military parts on civilian guns is well known and well documented by Kopec and others and as Dave posted above.

Just because the barrel is drilled for a studded housing, doesn't mean the factory was obligated to use one. The non-studded housing works just fine and by Colt changing to non-studded housings, confirms they didn't feel the stud was needed nor justified the extra cost. Recognize, newer parts, for example non-studded housings, were often dumped into bins on top of older parts and why all parts updates we see in the books always happen over a long transition period with only very approximate serial number ranges provided for the change, and that often overlap as is the case for the housing change:

Studded (or dowel) housings seen as late as #21,500
Non-studded housings seen as early as #20,500

Obviously these "round" numbers are just educated guesses. Your gun could actually reset the 20,500 # to a new low of #20,201! This happens all the time as more guns are observed; remember, most of the books were written a long time ago.

Again, a letter might help sort this out, especially if this gun shipped later than its serial # might indicate which would support the use of the later non-studded housing.

Yes the market is loaded with fraudulent guns, we know that. But all too often we hear of "unusual" guns being passed up due to skepticism and our lack of knowledge about variances in some features only to find later we missed out on a rare or a new milestone gun not yet documented.

The most knowledgeable collectors all admit that it takes truly investigative and deductive reasoning beyond just what the books say that lead to successful skill in the "collecting art".

Bottom line, your gun has no other hints of Tom foolery and I may be going against the tide, but I think it's completely righteous!
 
#11 ·
I like it and I like it a lot. I like the finish, the cylinder bevels, the metal to metal fitting. My only question would be the grips. They fit really well. I'd suspect over the years they'd see a little malformation- but based on the overall condition it's possible it was in a somewhat climate controlled region of the world. Nice piece! Congratulations!
 
#17 · (Edited)
Terry, no mention was made about a letter, so you are indeed correct. For $100, one could be obtained. Also, mention of this being for sale and possible value was mentioned. However, the OP never stated it was for sale. Not you, but others hypothesized this. It simply may be a firearm in Rick Bowles' collection.

As far as value. IF it is not a renickel, which I am still not 100% certain of, and it being antique and early civilian, I would value it at $7,500 to $8,500. If a refinish, it becomes only worth 1/3 or less.
 
#21 ·
I'm tardy here but thank you all for your thoughts. I haven't got a letter on this one and I understand one is not available. I bought the gun several years ago from a dealer friend who had purchased it in an Auction of a well known Colt Collector's collection. The gun had passed through the hands of 3 knowledgable and experienced people and it passed my own, less knowledgable and experienced, sniff test so the lack of a letter is of less concern.

The Auction description states the gun is original with a Military barrel, except for a slightly reduced front sight, and that it is factory nickel. I think that opinion is largely due to the absence of any buffing which is supported by the lack of any nickel in the stamps, except the barrel. In the experience of many, even a hint of buffing will open the stampings to allow the easy flow of a nickeling the stampings.

The barrel is an expected decision here because is was a military barrel left over from Colts Military contracts. It was likely already blued. So I think it is logical that Colt stamped it with the new civilian serial number and refinished it in Nickel when it nickeled the rest of the gun.

By its Serial No. the barrel is a Military barrel. While not itself condemned, it likely came from a condemned Cavalry. The last four digits of its Military SN are "2758." Thus, its Military Serial No. is either 2757 or 12757. Both would be Ainsworth stamped and his "A" stamp is above the "P" in the 8th photo ( sorry for the poor quality).

Because of the deterioration of the italic barrel address, the consensious is that its Military SN is 12757.

I was drawn to this SAA because its such a good example of the lengths Colt went to use all available parts. Note also how the barrel was altered to accept the Type II Ejector Housing. When the first runs of the Military Contacts ended around SN 20,000, Colt rushed to fill the orders backlog from the civilian market. The use of left over parts form the Military orders in the guns having SN's in the low 20,000's is not uncommon.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top