What they looked like when new in 1880
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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikebiker View Post
    In the end each gun must stand on it's own merits and not the word or opinion of a single individual or group of people. This gun if held in hand I am sure would impress most of us. If the gun alone were to be discussed without the letter it may have been an entirely different conversation.
    You are correct. An interesting thought is, how much would the gun have sold for without the letter?.

    Unfortunately, if Kopec did not miss those 16 flaws in the first inspection, the new damage described did not occur from historic honest use, but rather from modern abuse.
    mrcvs likes this.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnh View Post
    He does not say he has seen those revolvers. He says his survey shows them. When I spoke with him he told me his survey indicates guns reported to him from different sources.
    He does say they are all in near new condition and fine condition, so he must have seen them . I think it would be strange that the expert who literally wrote the book on these revolvers would be so overwhelmed by seeing this fine condition revolver he would miss observations he is being paid to document.


    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Last edited by chrometank; 10-06-2019 at 03:36 PM.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnh View Post
    You are correct. An interesting thought is, how much would the gun have sold for without the letter?. Unfortunately, if Kopec did not miss those 16 flaws in the first inspection, the new damage described did not occur from historic honest use, but rather from modern abuse.
    Even more interesting would be what it would have brought if sold with the "16 flaws" letter? Presumably significantly less than $402,500 especially since the revolver presented in this thread was marketed as perhaps the finest Cavalry Model revolver and Mr Kopec identifies 7 others in "near new" condition. Of course, one does not know how these others stack up against this one, but there's a good chance that one or more, or even all, of the others did not sustain the modern wear that this one did--meaning that the handsome premium this one brought, presumably for being the "best of the best" may not be sustainable.

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  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrometank View Post
    He does say they are all in near new condition and fine condition, so he must have seen them

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Like I said, when I spoke with him he told me his survey indicates guns reported to him from different sources, not just guns he has personally inspected. I discussed my Wheeler/Nettleton with him, which he said he was not aware of, and would add to his survey.

  6. #155
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    By the way, although in the public domain here, provided one does not search the internet for information about this revolver, which seems to be a common occurrence when very deep pockets, but not a lifetime of experience, are involved...I wonder if the "16 flaws" letter will conveniently disappear when this revolver is offered for sale in future? Many an undesirable Kopec letter have lined the insides of many a trash can.

  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnh View Post
    Like I said, when I spoke with him he told me his survey indicates guns reported to him from different sources, not just guns he has personally inspected. I discussed my Wheeler/Nettleton with him, which he said he was not aware of, and would add to his survey.
    So is he relying on gun owners opinions of their guns when he states they are in fine condition or near new ?
    Did you describe the condition of your W/N for the survey and does he include the condition you described in his survey ?

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Last edited by chrometank; 10-06-2019 at 04:04 PM.

  8. #157
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    IF he did not see them then it is most likely they were reported by someone whom he had substantial trust in. I own a gun that is listed in his book by serial number that was reported to him and in the book it notes these guns were reported to him but he has not examined them. The gun is a true disaster but it is exactly what it is supposed to be and in the correct condition for it's history. I may post it since no further damage can be done to it. I think I know where it is so I will try to photograph and post it next week.
    mrcvs and cloverleaf like this.
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  9. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikebiker View Post
    IF he did not see them then it is most likely they were reported by someone whom he had substantial trust in. I own a gun that is listed in his book by serial number that was reported to him and in the book it notes these guns were reported to him but he has not examined them. The gun is a true disaster but it is exactly what it is supposed to be and in the correct condition for it's history. I may post it since no further damage can be done to it. I think I know where it is so I will try to photograph and post it next week.
    +1. Thank you and looking forward to your post!

  10. #159
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    I found this entire thread educational for various reasons. I found the response from RIA lacking but a rather good public chiding.

    "It can be difficult and even impossible to accurately assess an item via catalog or photos."
    That would seem obvious to any serious collector of virtually...any thing. So if buying without actual hands on inspection one much trust the seller. You have to trust the seller, be it GB or RIA.

    If those claims are false, as they are in this case, it insults the base of knowledge that collectors before us have carefully assembled, not to mention unjustly threatens the overall collecting fraternity, the investment of the buyer, as well as our own hard-earned reputation. What if your investment were so unjustly criticized? Critiquing those with “deep pockets,” for a lack of knowledge is a presumption rooted in jealousy instead of fact. It is RIA’s experience that high-end collectors show a proclivity to utilize serious research and consultation prior to large purchases. Internet armchair critics who claim superior knowledge from behind a keyboard without ever having seen an item first-hand smacks of hypocrisy."
    One has no idea the finances available to anyone on this forum, deep pockets or no pockets. Finances might have everything to do with an opinion about a $500K gun or nothing at all. I'd bet that few if anyone here was all that impressed with the price of this gun in 2012 or recently in 2019 other than the significant profit made on the 2019 resale. The majority of comments were being made by what readers could see, not how much RIA hoped to sell the gun for.

    This is an open forum, available to the public specifically to discuss Colt firearms. Like any Internet site everyone gets a say on the subject....everyone has an equal opportunity to comment. And the opinions are worth what you pay for them.

    What amazes me is that one of the "finest examples" of a military SAA needed to be driven cross country to get a second letter from Kopec AFTER the 2019 sale, just to clarify what was obvious to all us "Internet armchair critics". Why the auction house didn't question the condition prior to the sell when they are selling and promoting a $500K hand gun is beyond me.

    if those claims are false….it unjustly threatens the overall collecting fraternity, the investment of the buyer, as well as our own hard-earned reputation.
    But in this case the claims were in fact true in a good deal of the discussion here. Promoting an auction of any historically significant, but incorrectly documented gun threatens the collector community and surely threatens anyone's purchase and no question blemishes the auction house's reputation. In this case all three entities eventually (after the fact) worked together to support the recent sell price. I'd bet there is a new owner who was unhappy after the sale, which is why RIA had Kopec produced a new letter.

    Just my opinion, but that should have been done prior by the previous owner or RIA or both. I don't see any reason here to applaud RIA or the previous owner being forced ( by Internet speculation or the new owner) to do what they should have done before the gun was offered at auction.

    The new owner should be thankful someone, some where, did question the condition of this gun so these issues would eventually be addressed. In the long run his investment has been enhanced, not harmed. Only time will tell if that 400+K was invested wisely $ for $. Hopefully, from my perspective...money had nothing to do with the purchase of this gun. And we never find the bubba that took a screw driver to it
    Last edited by Cozmo; 10-06-2019 at 08:30 PM.
    Joe A., mrcvs and Colt1860 like this.

  11. #160
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    I love the fact that I can ask a question here and with detailed pics can get a very honest assessment of any Colt I may have. The expertise on the forum is amazing. However, when it apparent that NO ONE on this forum was ASKING about this gun as a buyer and probably ONLY cared about the fact that, even with the new 16 flaws...it’s STILL THE NICEST ONE OUT THERE! Are they getting scammed? NO. The type of person buying a gun like this, in my mind,doesn’t care about small changes over the last 6 years. It’s not advertised as NIB and it’s 140+ years old.

    I could very easily see all of the comments and assessments if the person came here worried about his purchase but to point out a lot of faults WHEN NOT ASKED about ANOTHER persons gun isn’t wise for anyone. If you look back at the comments written there are some pretty harsh statements from people that weren’t even asked their opinions by those that mattered.

    Overall my assessment would be:
    We live in the 21st century and if a person can find a gun online or in person that he/she wants and they don’t put in more research time then it’s them. Of course, if an auction is totally misrepresenting an item then call it out AND TRY YOU CONTACT THE BUYER OR THE AUCTION HOUSE. If they ignore you THEN BLAST THE HELL OUT OF THEM.

    We and our opinions could easily take thousands out of the sellers and auctioneers hands and actually have no proof...sorry but that’s not right. JMHO


 
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