Colt Forum banner

Seeking information on a Colt possibly owned by Pancho Villa

13K views 83 replies 37 participants last post by  SnidelyWhiplash 
#1 ·
Hello Colt Forum,

I will apologize ahead of time-- I had more photos front/back of the gun including whole shots while laying sideways, but somehow they escaped my phone. The gun is located a few hours away so I won't be able to get more photos in the very near future. I have the following video and photos. I have received verbal verification via several generations the family believes the gun to be owned by Pancho Villa, from limited research I have done, their location, and identities-- I believe this to be possible.

I found this forum via google and hope my post is in the correct section, I believe this is a Single Action Army.

I may be able to answer some more questions from memory or get my friend to check into the firearm if some key information is missing.

Your wisdom and insight would be greatly appreciated.

Kindly,

Sean

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WWDVA6DFXXsG77Ir8C5Vo4KE3eUiHD5-







 
See less See more
6
#2 · (Edited)
It's old enough to have been owned by him. But that caliber is not really a man-stopper, and would not have been a first choice for someone used to shootouts. The family stories would need some more provenance. That would include something that was written down back in the 20s or 30s that has someone who ownded the gun being in proximity to Pancho Villa - another revolutionary that rode with him, etc. Or the serial number being placed with him by any number of means. A Colt letter saying "shipped to Pancho Villa", or a period newspaper report saying "Serial number xxxx was given to so-in-so when Pancho visited in 1913"....and so on.

It's a shame no one kept oil on it, so it wouldn't have rusted. Do NOT try to remove the rust or clean it abrasively, you will hurt it more. The best you can do is put a good coat of oil on it for a few days, then carefully and gently wipe it off with a rag. Turn the rag often, don't let the rust particles scratch it more. Then put another coat of oil, and do it again a day later...and so on. Do NOT use sandpaper, steel wool, or anything abrasive - that is for experts, and seldom used even then.
 
#3 ·
But that caliber is not really a man-stopper, and would not have been a first choice for someone used to shootouts.
Unless Poncho favored accuracy over power. 32 WCF with a 7.5" barrel. But I agree with you in that I don't think this would be the chosen Colt of a "Gunfighter". Any historical info on what Poncho Villa used to roll with in terms of his guns of choice?
 
#6 · (Edited)
Pancho Villa's primary wife, Doña Maria Luz, reportedly sold a number of "Pancho's guns" to tourists after he was assassinated in 1923.

As written for True West by Tom Augherton "Even though the government took the Villa Ranch near Canutillo, Durango from Doña Luz for back taxes, they did not take the Villas’ 50-room mansion in Chihuahua City. For six decades Villa’s celebrity widow welcomed a stream of strangers and curiosity-seekers to La Casa de Villa, or Historical Museum of the Revolution, which was filled with artifacts of her dead husband".

Doña Luz died at age 89 on July 6, 1981. A photo of her with Pancho is attached below.

There are a number of Pancho's Colts scattered all over the country, including an engraved Colt SAA on display at the Saunders Museum in Berryville, Arkansas.
 

Attachments

#10 ·
Smutt,

Thanks for your comments. What is a 'rusted old Colt' like this worth? I did some research, but found prices anywhere from $400 to $10,000+. Am I right in my identification as a SAA? Are there any acceptable methods of cleaning a gun that do not diminish the value?

Moja,

I saw that article. I could not locate the gun or something similar in any of the photos. I do not discount the story yet because there may always be more photos or some further information or paperwork I can get.

Chiz,

I will try and get some more information from my source and get as close to exact dates it was received, purchased, given, etc.

Anyone,

Is there any description to what this gun actually is? When I search the serial number on the Colt lookup there is too many options for me to discern which this one is. It carries 169222 in two places and 169232 in one.

Regards,

Sean
 
#11 ·
You have colt single action army in 32-20 (32 w.c.f. winchester center fire) with 7-1/2" barrel that by the serial number should have been shipped in 1896 or 1897. The gun could be soaked in some aerokroil or something similar for a while and most of that surface rust would soften up and could be wiped away with causing any further damage to the metal.

I'd say it should be in the value range of $1800 to $2200. It would have to have more than "someone in the family said it belonged to Villa" for most collectors I know to buy the ownership story. I myself, find it hard to believe that Villa would have carried a 32-20 with him which isn't really considered a serious man stopper caliber. I would assume that he would have went with a larger bore revolver either in 44-40 or 45 colt.
 
#16 · (Edited)


Villa had a lot of guns- a pistolero since youth, guns were his job- you can ez find photo's of him packing Mod P's, Smith and Wesson's and Bisley's. I have read that his nickled* pearl handled Bisley was a 38.40*- in the old west and waning days of the old west the .38 40 was thought to "Shoot Hard" and I think it was 3rd in SAA sales numbers. Pancho had a lot of hand guns probably in a lot of calibers. Sold, traded and gave them away likely- like a lot of us did in the past pre 68', and his heirs may have manufactured them after his death.. Something like Earp and Bat.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attract..._Francisco_Villa-Durango_Northern_Mexico.html






Villa's Nickled* Bisley is at the Autry museum iirc

Autry’s Collections Online – revolver Bisley Model Single Action Army Revolver

* Wrong it was blue, correct it is at the Autry museum- got there via John Bianchi.
* Wrong again its a .44 40
 
#19 ·
You have a what appears to an all original Colt Single Action that is considered by the federal and most state governments to be a legal antique, this means manufactured before 1899. In many locations this will not require any paperwork to legally transfer ownership. Cleaning a gun like this will give you lots of conflicting opinions. It looks like it has been stored in a leather holster in a damp environment. You can see traces of the leather in places. The gun has what is considered to be active rust which is red as compared to a smooth brown associated with patina. At this time the rust is causing light pitting but I do not see any deep pitting going on. There is no rush to do anything to the gun as long as it is kept dry and out of the holster. The holster was wet or damp and stayed in contact with the metal causing the rust we see. Without the holster it would have dried and not gotten this bad. I would not ouch the gun at this point until it certain no link to Villa can be found. It would be worth more as pictured and just discovered then cleaned. People like to think that Pancho was the last one to put it away and it has not been touched since. Not true but a nice thought and sometimes that can equal money. At some point some cleaning will be needed. So far you have been given good advice by others. The gun can easily be cleaned and turned into a shooter if one would desire to do so. If any real provenance can be found then it's primary value would be as a collectible. With a gun like this you would need nearly impeccable proof that he was at one time an owner of the gun and not just aunt Mary's sister's word for it. That literately means nothing even if she was a maid in the house 70 years ago.

Having said all that it is still a nice undisturbed antique firearm. Many of us would like to find one like that. As just a gun it is desirable and would be in the 2000 to 2500 dollar range and on a good day maybe even a bit more.
 
#20 ·
It's good to hear he carried a Bisley (a lot of people did in the old west). I don't revere Pancho Villa, who basically was a bandit and killer, and who attacked Colombus, NM because of his politics, and killed a lot of innocent Americans. But in my part of the country many people do. I lived about an hour east of Colombus in the 90s, and NM was still very frontier feeling in these little towns. I drove the 375 miles south of the border once, down to Chihuahua with my wife and a friend, and saw the car Villa was killed in. I still have the picture of us in front of it pointing at bullet holes.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Given the condition of the rest of the gun I would be surprised if the bore wasn't seriously rusted as well. I would try some penetrating oil on the grip screw, and with a properly fitting screwdriver remove the grips. Then drop the entire gun sans grips into a container of 50/50 ATF and acetone and let it soak for a week. That should give the rust removal a good start and hopefully free up the rest of the screws so it can be completely disassembled for a thorough cleaning and preservation.
Even after all that, if the bore is a sewer pipe I wouldn't think it is worth more than $500 as a relic. The mis-matched serial numbers while close, and possibly even a factory error do not help the value.
To the OP: If you have a proper set of hollow ground gunsmith screwdrivers, a set of detail stripping instructions and some mechanical ability you can attempt a complete disassembly. If not, I would take it to a gunsmith. So far most of the screws look relatively unmolested. It would be a shame to bugger those screw heads or risk snapping one off or the screwdriver blade slipping and gouging the gun while trying to get the thing apart.
 
#25 ·
I wouldn't give $2 for the "story". 99.9% of all guns with a story, you find out the story is wrong. If THEY prove provenience, then they get their selling price. If its left for YOU to prove provenance, it's treated as any old Peacemaker.

And here's the thing about Provenance...

If it has a letter, you contact the issuer of the letter to confirm they did in fact issue the letter. Then (depending on whom it is), you find out why they are the issuer of the letter... What makes anyone think they are correct? They need to prove THEIR provenance as well.
 
#26 ·
As a member here once posted...the rarest Colt from Mexico is the one that Pancho Villa didn't own.
 
#27 ·
This gun is in better than "relic" condition, which is one that would never fire, frozen from rust, etc. If you get the gun oiled and carefully cleaned, it is going to look a lot better. But again, don't do it if you don't know what you are doing. And that means no abrasives. Lots of oil, soaking on the surfaces. Remove the grips as the guy recommended, and you can really douse it with CLP Break-free, found at Walmart. I'd bet the gun comes out looking more like a 30%-50% gun, than the 10% it looks now. I see a lot of "gray guns" (0% finish) bandied about by people and selling for $1500 or more. Not to me...but just saying.

The mismatched serial number is a fluke - I doubt after it was sold someone would have found a matching trigger guard that fits so well, that happens to be on 10 digits off the original. It's probably a factory mis-strike.
 
#28 ·
This fancy Engraved & gold plated Colt Officers Model Target and holster was owned by Hipolito Villa, Pancho's brother. The factory letter lists this revolver in .38 caliber with a 6 inch barrel, gold plated finish, "Pearl with carved Mexican Eagle motif" grips, factory engraved with "'Hipolito Villa' engraved on the strap", and as shipped to Shelton-Payne Arms Company in El Paso, Texas, on March 2, 1915. I was able to find this original photo of Hipolito that was taken about the time the gun was shipped.

 
#32 ·
Buy the gun
Not the story
The sad part is they will more than likely want more than it is worth due to the story
Please let us know what you find out
God Bless,John

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: MarkInTx and Cozmo
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top