Have a 1st. Gen SAA that I'd like to remove the barrel and have it redone.
How hard and what's the best tool?
How hard and what's the best tool?
jbmi
I just use a block of wood with a hole the size of the barrel O.D., cut in half. I wrap the barrel with lots of masking tape and a piece of leather. Chuck the barrel in the wood block, in a vice. Take out the cylinder and use a hammer wood handle to turn the frame. But I am brave. 
There are professional barrel vices and bushings in any diameter you can purchase from Brownells. or, better yet, take it to someone with the tools.
There are professional barrel vices and bushings in any diameter you can purchase from Brownells. or, better yet, take it to someone with the tools.I have seen this done, however most gunsmiths would disagree with this approach I believe (including our own dfariswheel). Very easy to bend spring the frame from what I understand, particularly for someone who doesn't have a 'feel' for the work.
OP, search for posts by dfariswheel on removing / replacing the barrel in a revolver. He goes into great detail on the proper steps required.
Professional gunsmith tools are expensive. Guns are far more expensive.
To avoid bending or cracking the frame you should use a professional frame wrench with gun-specific polymer inserts that support and protect the frame.
If you want you can use the split block of hardwood as a barrel vise, but if the barrel slips because a shop vise can't clamp the barrel tight enough, the finish on the barrel will be stripped off.
If you intend to put the same barrel back on the gun, if it's properly torqued back in place the front sight will no longer be properly aligned. The barrel will screw on slightly farther and the front sight will be off to the left, making the gun shoot off target.
If you intend to replace the barrel with a different barrel you'll need a lathe or bench trimming tool to trim the barrel shoulder to align the barrel, a special cutter tool that works down the bore to trim the rear of the barrel to set barrel/cylinder gap, and another special cutter head and drop in precision plug gage to re-cut the forcing cone. Also needed will be a special brass lap and fine valve grinding compound to lap the forcing cone smooth.
Note that doing barrel work is the second biggest pistolsmithing job, after cylinder work.
Unless you KNOW what you're doing AND have the correct tools you're risking a gun with a high risk of damage.
To avoid bending or cracking the frame you should use a professional frame wrench with gun-specific polymer inserts that support and protect the frame.
If you want you can use the split block of hardwood as a barrel vise, but if the barrel slips because a shop vise can't clamp the barrel tight enough, the finish on the barrel will be stripped off.
If you intend to put the same barrel back on the gun, if it's properly torqued back in place the front sight will no longer be properly aligned. The barrel will screw on slightly farther and the front sight will be off to the left, making the gun shoot off target.
If you intend to replace the barrel with a different barrel you'll need a lathe or bench trimming tool to trim the barrel shoulder to align the barrel, a special cutter tool that works down the bore to trim the rear of the barrel to set barrel/cylinder gap, and another special cutter head and drop in precision plug gage to re-cut the forcing cone. Also needed will be a special brass lap and fine valve grinding compound to lap the forcing cone smooth.
Note that doing barrel work is the second biggest pistolsmithing job, after cylinder work.
Unless you KNOW what you're doing AND have the correct tools you're risking a gun with a high risk of damage.
Hamilton Bowen shared this tip: Cut strips of duct tape and fold in half lengthwise, sticky side out. Wrap the barrel with several layers of this full length of the vise jaws or clamp, extending slightly beyond the jaws. Gives a firm grip and protects the finish.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
Saving finish on the barrel is secondary to " tweeting" the frame with your wooden wrench. This is not a pistol to go cheap on, let the professional prepare for and complete the refinishing.
Barrel removal and replacement:
Bowen Article
There is the professional way to remove/install barrels. But for a hundred years the home shop method has also worked.
One of THE FINEST Gunsmith's around, Hamilton Bowen of Bowen Classic Arms has written a "How To" for all of us homeboy 'smiths. I've included much more detail that I determined to be helpful as well.
I've also included installing a different barrel for reference which is where this becomes more challenging than simply replacing the original barrel. It may seem complicated once you see what's involved, but it’s really a fairly simple operation.
Removing & Replacing Barrel:
1. When removing the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] time, Ruger barrels are very tight, don’t give up! Mark the barrel per #10 below before removing if the same barrel is to be reinstalled. Colts are not as tight.
2. You will not tweak/bend a Ruger SA or Colt SA frame with is method, so don't worry about that. Exception: aluminum alloy frames!
3. You'll need a 3 ft piece of 2x4 with one end cut the size of the cylinder window.
4. If you don't have a barrel vise, you'll need a very big vise that you can really tighten to about 150 ft lbs. That means very tight!!
5. Take two blocks of oak or other hard wood about 3" x 3" x 3/4" , clamp in a vise and drill a hole a little larger than diameter of the barrel, thru the seam so you have 1/2 of a hole in each block when you separate them.
6. To absolutely guarantee that you don't mar the finish, spiral wrap your barrel in duct tape folded in half the long way so it's sticky on both sides. DO NOT use rosin as some suggest, it will rub off the bluing when the barrel slips, and it will slip until you have it tight enough in the vise.
7.You will need two thick pieces of leather, 1/8" or 3/16", to pad the wood blocks.
8. Clamp the barrel w/blocks & leather making sure there is no pressure on the sight; you can pop it right off when the barrel slips in your blocks, and it will slip until you tighten the vise 3 or 4 more times.
9. Tighten vise until the barrel won't slip in the blocks when you apply pressure on the 2x4. You’ll hear a crack when the barrel finally lets go. I always pre-soak with a good penetrant. A 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF fluid is the absolute best for frozen and/or rusted parts.
10. Reinstalling barrel: hand turn in the barrel as far as it will go but with the front sight at 12 o’clock. Make an index mark on top of the barrel and frame (with fine point black indelible ink pen) where the barrel meets the frame. You'll need to turn the barrel more than you think is enough. Make your line about 1/32" wide, you'll probably need to turn the barrel until the marks are offset by the width of the line. If you have to go much farther than that, your ejec rod hsg will not fit snug to the barrel although you'll still be able to screw it on.
11. Don't get in a hurry.
Installing a different barrel:
Turn in and tighten the new barrel and see how it 'clocks' (is the sight straight up and down?) If it tightens up before the sight is at 12 o'clock but it's close, the simplest way to fit it, is too draw file the front of the frame. Polish and touch up w/OxPho Blue from Brownells. The beauty of this method is you won't have to modify the Ejector rod housing length.
PLAN A:
This example is for mid & most full size Rugers and 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] gen Colt barrels which has 24 TPI (1[SUP]st[/SUP] and 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] gen Colts are 20 TPI; you'll need to count the threads per inch of other barrels).
A barrel thread with 24 threads per inch is .0416" of barrel length per thread, one complete turn of the barrel. If the barrel hand tightens about 1/8th of a turn short of the sight being at 12 o'clock, you’re good to go, it will turn straight up in the vise and be tight.
PLAN A cont'd:
But if it’s ¼ turn shy, you need to remove material to get it within 1/8 turn from straight up. A 1/8 of a turn is 1/8 of .0416" or .0052", which is not much, it can be removed from the barrel shoulder or since it's such a small amount it can be removed from the front of the frame; draw file, polish, and touch up the bluing.
Next measure how far the barrel sticks thru the frame and add the .0052" to it because once you draw file the frame the barrel still stick thru that much farther. Now compare that measurement to the new cyl-to-frame spacing and you'll know what the b/c gap will be. If the barrel is too long and B/C gap is too tight or no gap you'll know how much to take off of the barrel forcing cone shooting for about a .005" + or - b/c gap. If the barrel is not long enough to get that tight of a gap or something close to it, you have to go to PLAN B.
PLAN B:
If the barrel throat is too short or the barrel doesn't hand tighten until the sight goes past 12 o'clock you'll need to take off metal from the barrel shoulder. For example if the barrel doesn't tighten until it's 1/4 turn past 12 o'clock, the barrel will have to turn in another 3/4s of a turn for the sight to come around again and be straight up. So (.0416" divided by 4) x 3 = .0312" has to come off the barrel shoulder.
You’ll need a lathe to 'turn off' .0312" of the barrel shoulder where it meets the frame. And you'll have to shorten the ERH the same amount.
(Note: if the barrel tightens up just a tiny amount past 12 o’clock, there’s a short cut; gently tap the sharp edges of the barrel thread. This will create a slight “interference fit” of the threads causing the barrel to tighten before 12 o’clock).
Install new barrel per #10 above.
Tweaking Barrels to Zero:
I have tweaked many barrels to get them to shoot to point of aim and changed Colt and Ruger barrels. My experience: the hardest thing to do is to move a barrel just a slight amount, especially tighter! So turn the barrel out loose and then retighten it to the new position you want.
Before you attempt to 'tweak' the barrel, to change windage or straighten up a front sight, be sure that the sight isn’t just leaning to one side. If the front sight is crooked because the sight base wasn't soldered on square to the barrel, even after you straighten it by turning the barrel, it still won't look right! The blade may be straight up but the base could be off center on the barrel.
Jim
Bowen Article
There is the professional way to remove/install barrels. But for a hundred years the home shop method has also worked.
One of THE FINEST Gunsmith's around, Hamilton Bowen of Bowen Classic Arms has written a "How To" for all of us homeboy 'smiths. I've included much more detail that I determined to be helpful as well.
I've also included installing a different barrel for reference which is where this becomes more challenging than simply replacing the original barrel. It may seem complicated once you see what's involved, but it’s really a fairly simple operation.
Removing & Replacing Barrel:
1. When removing the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] time, Ruger barrels are very tight, don’t give up! Mark the barrel per #10 below before removing if the same barrel is to be reinstalled. Colts are not as tight.
2. You will not tweak/bend a Ruger SA or Colt SA frame with is method, so don't worry about that. Exception: aluminum alloy frames!
3. You'll need a 3 ft piece of 2x4 with one end cut the size of the cylinder window.
4. If you don't have a barrel vise, you'll need a very big vise that you can really tighten to about 150 ft lbs. That means very tight!!
5. Take two blocks of oak or other hard wood about 3" x 3" x 3/4" , clamp in a vise and drill a hole a little larger than diameter of the barrel, thru the seam so you have 1/2 of a hole in each block when you separate them.
6. To absolutely guarantee that you don't mar the finish, spiral wrap your barrel in duct tape folded in half the long way so it's sticky on both sides. DO NOT use rosin as some suggest, it will rub off the bluing when the barrel slips, and it will slip until you have it tight enough in the vise.
7.You will need two thick pieces of leather, 1/8" or 3/16", to pad the wood blocks.
8. Clamp the barrel w/blocks & leather making sure there is no pressure on the sight; you can pop it right off when the barrel slips in your blocks, and it will slip until you tighten the vise 3 or 4 more times.
9. Tighten vise until the barrel won't slip in the blocks when you apply pressure on the 2x4. You’ll hear a crack when the barrel finally lets go. I always pre-soak with a good penetrant. A 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF fluid is the absolute best for frozen and/or rusted parts.
10. Reinstalling barrel: hand turn in the barrel as far as it will go but with the front sight at 12 o’clock. Make an index mark on top of the barrel and frame (with fine point black indelible ink pen) where the barrel meets the frame. You'll need to turn the barrel more than you think is enough. Make your line about 1/32" wide, you'll probably need to turn the barrel until the marks are offset by the width of the line. If you have to go much farther than that, your ejec rod hsg will not fit snug to the barrel although you'll still be able to screw it on.
11. Don't get in a hurry.
Installing a different barrel:
Turn in and tighten the new barrel and see how it 'clocks' (is the sight straight up and down?) If it tightens up before the sight is at 12 o'clock but it's close, the simplest way to fit it, is too draw file the front of the frame. Polish and touch up w/OxPho Blue from Brownells. The beauty of this method is you won't have to modify the Ejector rod housing length.
PLAN A:
This example is for mid & most full size Rugers and 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] gen Colt barrels which has 24 TPI (1[SUP]st[/SUP] and 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] gen Colts are 20 TPI; you'll need to count the threads per inch of other barrels).
A barrel thread with 24 threads per inch is .0416" of barrel length per thread, one complete turn of the barrel. If the barrel hand tightens about 1/8th of a turn short of the sight being at 12 o'clock, you’re good to go, it will turn straight up in the vise and be tight.
PLAN A cont'd:
But if it’s ¼ turn shy, you need to remove material to get it within 1/8 turn from straight up. A 1/8 of a turn is 1/8 of .0416" or .0052", which is not much, it can be removed from the barrel shoulder or since it's such a small amount it can be removed from the front of the frame; draw file, polish, and touch up the bluing.
Next measure how far the barrel sticks thru the frame and add the .0052" to it because once you draw file the frame the barrel still stick thru that much farther. Now compare that measurement to the new cyl-to-frame spacing and you'll know what the b/c gap will be. If the barrel is too long and B/C gap is too tight or no gap you'll know how much to take off of the barrel forcing cone shooting for about a .005" + or - b/c gap. If the barrel is not long enough to get that tight of a gap or something close to it, you have to go to PLAN B.
PLAN B:
If the barrel throat is too short or the barrel doesn't hand tighten until the sight goes past 12 o'clock you'll need to take off metal from the barrel shoulder. For example if the barrel doesn't tighten until it's 1/4 turn past 12 o'clock, the barrel will have to turn in another 3/4s of a turn for the sight to come around again and be straight up. So (.0416" divided by 4) x 3 = .0312" has to come off the barrel shoulder.
You’ll need a lathe to 'turn off' .0312" of the barrel shoulder where it meets the frame. And you'll have to shorten the ERH the same amount.
(Note: if the barrel tightens up just a tiny amount past 12 o’clock, there’s a short cut; gently tap the sharp edges of the barrel thread. This will create a slight “interference fit” of the threads causing the barrel to tighten before 12 o’clock).
Install new barrel per #10 above.
Tweaking Barrels to Zero:
I have tweaked many barrels to get them to shoot to point of aim and changed Colt and Ruger barrels. My experience: the hardest thing to do is to move a barrel just a slight amount, especially tighter! So turn the barrel out loose and then retighten it to the new position you want.
Before you attempt to 'tweak' the barrel, to change windage or straighten up a front sight, be sure that the sight isn’t just leaning to one side. If the front sight is crooked because the sight base wasn't soldered on square to the barrel, even after you straighten it by turning the barrel, it still won't look right! The blade may be straight up but the base could be off center on the barrel.
Jim
Hondo, Thanks for posting those directions. I have removed and replaced several barrels from frames.
but these directions will certainly allow me to improve the way I operate.
By the way, I have watched a couple of gunsmiths remove barrels and they have not been as careful as
what Bowen prescribes in his procedure.
but these directions will certainly allow me to improve the way I operate.
By the way, I have watched a couple of gunsmiths remove barrels and they have not been as careful as
what Bowen prescribes in his procedure.
Hello, I'm going to replace my colt 3rd gen saa 45 barrel. The new barrel with 24tpi has a non tapered thread diameter of .681". I have a second new barrel that measures .680" with 24 tpi.
According to Jerry Kuhnhausen's colt saa shop manual page 127 these barrels should measure .695"-24 tpi.
Brownell's site shows 3rd gen specs at .683"-24tpi for my barrel.
I haven't taken my original barrel off the frame yet to check it, I'm worried about this conflict in measurements.
Can you help me??
Thanks .
According to Jerry Kuhnhausen's colt saa shop manual page 127 these barrels should measure .695"-24 tpi.
Brownell's site shows 3rd gen specs at .683"-24tpi for my barrel.
I haven't taken my original barrel off the frame yet to check it, I'm worried about this conflict in measurements.
Can you help me??
Thanks .
I have a frame wrench and the barrel on my 5 1/2" 3rd Gen needs tweaked to the left to shoot to point of aim. Mr. Bowen's instruction's answered a question I had about securing the barrel. Thanks for posting, Hondo.
Bowen IS a genuine expert pistolsmith, but with that said, if I handed a customers color case hardened Single Action Colt to him and he saw where I'd filed off the front of the frame to get the barrel to fit, I'd expect a punch in the nose, and I'd deserve it.
Same thing goes for using a wood "wrench" through the frame window.
I'd hate to have to explain to a customer why I bent or cracked his frame using a "tool" that just about every expert specifically says NOT to use.
These days there's not much excuse for not using the correct tools to do work.
Due to the Cowboy shooting sports, there's plenty of action wrenches available to do it right and with little risk of damaging the frame.
Same thing goes for using a wood "wrench" through the frame window.
I'd hate to have to explain to a customer why I bent or cracked his frame using a "tool" that just about every expert specifically says NOT to use.
These days there's not much excuse for not using the correct tools to do work.
Due to the Cowboy shooting sports, there's plenty of action wrenches available to do it right and with little risk of damaging the frame.
Some thoughts from a do-it-yourselfer. I have turned a couple of Ruger barrels, and one colt barrel. On the Ruger barrels I used the wood block method. On the Colt, I bought the proper wrench and frame/barrel blocks. I did so on the Colt, as I learned on the Rugers that it is not as easy as some might think, from reading internet how too's.
Mr. Bowen has probably turned thousands of barrels, and has a method that works for him. But the proverbial devil will be in the details. And I think this is where the home hobbyist/smith can get into problems. Cutting or learning exactly which corners are critical. He notes his recipe for penetrating oil. Pretty easy to think, "aw heck, I have WD-40, that will work". And it may, or may not. How about the vise. He lists 150 pounds of pressure. Do you know any way of measuring that? I can tell you, you will want a big honking vise. How big? Well, mine is sort of big enough, but my tightening handle is a little bent from the cheater bar I needed to get it tight enough for the Rugers. I knew mine would work with the Colt barrel with proper tools, as it had worked without proper tools. But my barrel did slip a little with the tools, but no harm was done to my barrel. My pressure needed to be what I thought was enough, plus a little bit more.
The OP is doing his own gun, and knows there will be a risk, that he will have to accept. It's nice to see the range of methods posted, for consideration. No one can tell him which method is right or wrong, but my vote would be for the proper tools. If it were a Ruger, I might suggest the Bowen method. Value plus or minus experience sort of equals risk, by my calculations.
Craig
Mr. Bowen has probably turned thousands of barrels, and has a method that works for him. But the proverbial devil will be in the details. And I think this is where the home hobbyist/smith can get into problems. Cutting or learning exactly which corners are critical. He notes his recipe for penetrating oil. Pretty easy to think, "aw heck, I have WD-40, that will work". And it may, or may not. How about the vise. He lists 150 pounds of pressure. Do you know any way of measuring that? I can tell you, you will want a big honking vise. How big? Well, mine is sort of big enough, but my tightening handle is a little bent from the cheater bar I needed to get it tight enough for the Rugers. I knew mine would work with the Colt barrel with proper tools, as it had worked without proper tools. But my barrel did slip a little with the tools, but no harm was done to my barrel. My pressure needed to be what I thought was enough, plus a little bit more.
The OP is doing his own gun, and knows there will be a risk, that he will have to accept. It's nice to see the range of methods posted, for consideration. No one can tell him which method is right or wrong, but my vote would be for the proper tools. If it were a Ruger, I might suggest the Bowen method. Value plus or minus experience sort of equals risk, by my calculations.
Craig
I recently bought a frame wrench and a barrel vice from Brownell's for my SAA and discovered the vice for removing bench rest rifle barrels. I have bench rest rifles which I don't compete with anymore, so the vice goes back to Brownells. Now, question is, can you Mr. Martin or dfaris, recommend an appropriate one that will bolt to the bench and hold the SAA barrell without marring it? I do like the duct tape idea, but I do not have a lathe, and it seems the aluminum inserts pre-drilled in Brownell's catalog appear to have too large a diameter hole in them for the standard SAA barrell.....thanks for your help!!Jim Bryan
I had thought about shimming the hole in the vice I bought, perhaps with rigid copper pipe, but I don't want to risk marring the barrel
I use a SAA frame wrench from Brownells, and use their aluminum bbl blocks, Brownells lead liners between the blocks and barrel and plenty of powdered rosen. I don't have a super heavy bench vise, so I do a lot of hammering on the vise handle to get it tight enough! Works for me.
I have changed barrels on several revolvers, more on New Service than other & none on SAAs. I offer my barrel wrench idea as having worked for me & IMO superior to the hammer handle or the 2x4 cut to fit. The hammer handle idea concentrates the force on the middle of the top strap with most risk bending it --- the 2x4 distributes the force better but still some distance away from the barrel thread. OTOH I use a steel bar 1/2 x 1 1/4" with the 1/2" edge applying the force. That concentrates (or applies) the torque close to the thread area & minimizes possibility of bending the top strap. To avoid disturb to the frame, I put a piece of soft brass between my 'wrench' & its contact.
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