Colt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,579 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am being offered a transition model sn 7010xx. According to Clawson's book that number was in the 7 Feb 1924 shipment of 1000. Clawson also says that the 1911A1 designation was adopted in 1926. Am I correct to assume from those dates that sn 7010xx should be marked as a 1911, not a 1911A1? Or were they possibly marked later?

I am a long time collector of Colt Woodsmans, but I have very limited knowledge of the large frame autos. I will be seeing the pistol later today for the first time. Suggestions please as to what details I should look for. It is described as 98% original finish and all correct by the person who has owned it for several years.

He is also bringing a 1911 from 1916, described as 99%+. I have bought and sold from this person for years. He is a very picky condition buyer, and his descriptions of condition are always right on. I am not going to get into serious collecting of the large frame autos, but I sure would not mind having a couple superb examples like these two. Price is $8000 for the two.

I need advice from the 1911/1911A1 experts. I think the price is good for what they are, but I need to know what to check for.

Pictures of transition previously added. Here are pics of 1916 1911









Bob Rayburn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
275 Posts
You need to ask the boys over at
"1911Forums" in the USGI section.
That's where the Military 1911 experts
hang out. Even as decribed, $8K is strong
in my neck of the woods for those 2.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,704 Posts
Bob,

I'll be glad to help you. The 1924 pistols are marked on the slide like the M1911 guns but they have the A1 features and are included in the official nomenclature as M1911A1's. This is why collectors have dubbed them the "Transition Model." They have a uniquely marked barrel and some other details to look for.

The 1916 pistol will also have some unique characteristics such as high markings on the slide.

If they are high condition and all correct $8,000 is not a bad price.

Email me if you have more detailed questions.

Regards,
Kevin Williams
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,138 Posts
As Kevin states, these pistols are both highly desireable, and have distinctive features. If 99% original condition, the transition alone should be about $8,000.

I suspect the 1916 pistol is a Government Model, and not an M1911. 1916 M1911's are very rare, and in 99% condition would be worth far more than $8k... unless it has been restored.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
For good illustrations of what to look for, visit this site:

http://www.coolgunsite.com/

The "1911 Gallery" will have at least one well photographed transition and some early examples for you to compare to the 1916 sample.

Besides vetting the slide/frame match, checking that small parts are correct to the period is important. Barrel, hammer, triggers, safeties, and grips. If you have the Clawson book, you have the information you need and that site above can give some more visual help. Also check out the "ID" pages for help with small parts visual ID.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,579 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Pictures added for transition gun

I now have possession of the 1911A1 transition, although I have not paid for it and do not yet own it. I will not see the 1916 dated 1911 until Thursday. The 1916 gun is military marked and SN 1365xx. Pictures of the transition follow.












No markings on top of the barrel.




No K on bottom of barrel. It has a G instead. Also has COLT 45 AUTO on side of barrel.

Comments welcome.

Bob Rayburn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
488 Posts
The pistol itself looks great, but that's a real bummer about the barrel. The one in there belongs to a later pistol. A correct K-marked barrel by itself is just about impossible to find.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,138 Posts
I suspect the 1916 pistol is a Government Model, and not an M1911. 1916 M1911's are very rare, and in 99% condition would be worth far more than $8k... unless it has been restored.
I stand happily corrected on my assumption! That is a very nice looking Military pistol! Is it "S" marked or "H" marked (or both)? (Back of slide, back of barrel, and top of frame if I remember the locations correctly.) Because you posted pictures, I hope means that you bought them both! (The only negative I saw on either pistol was the barel on the transitional...) Congrats!! I still don't have a 1916 in my collection... never mind one as nice as that!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,579 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Is it "S" marked or "H" marked (or both)? (Back of slide, back of barrel, and top of frame if I remember the locations correctly.) Because you posted pictures, I hope means that you bought them both!
Yes, I bought them both. The 1916 is H marked back of slide, back of barrel and top of frame at 12 O'clock. Top of frame also has U at 1 O'clock a different H at 3 O'clock, and a 6 forward of the magazine well. There is a 5 on the bottom of the barrel and another 5 on left side of the barrel lug.

I really enjoy caressing and playing with them, and I look forward to taking them to my next local gun show for "show and tell".

Thanks to all for the help and advice. I don't often step outside my specialty, especially with a sizable price tag, but these two are so nice I couldn't resist.

Bob Rayburn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Nice find the 24 is a great looking gun shame about the barrel. I have the same problem let me tell you trying to find the correct barrel is real pain in butt. I've been trying for month. But even with out the correct barrel they are a great piece of 1911 history.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
I second Westgard's and Rob Greer's opinion. You did well. Really well. I often ask older collectors about spare barrels....you'd be surprised how many just have stuff stored in the basement ...magazines, barrels and other small parts. That's where you're gonna find the interlaced HP AND the K on the bottom. That will be a big payday for you with both 1911s for 8K. Congratulations !!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,269 Posts
Nice find the 24 is a great looking gun shame about the barrel. I have the same problem let me tell you trying to find the correct barrel is real pain in butt. I've been trying for month. But even with out the correct barrel they are a great piece of 1911 history.
A month?
Hang in there. That is a very small chunk of time for collecting searches.

For example,
I have 2 original AR-10 rifles, spare parts, and accessories. I took a huge chance when I bought one of them. It is what is called a Portuguese contract model. It came with replacement stocks, no good.

It took at least 4 yrs. to find a set of original hand guards and an original butt stock.The pistol grip was not too hard to find.
Between the 2 major contracts, consisting of the Sudanese and the Portuguese, somewhat less than 10,000 rifles were made.
There are only about 2,000 +/- rifles left, some just in parts, in the entire world. Many, like my 2, were imported as parts kits in the mid '80s and sold with reverse engineered US made semi auto lower receivers.

So don't give up!
Granted, the K barrel is very hard to find, but I bet there's one out there waiting for you! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,252 Posts
Just be careful, as there is always someone out there that will make you a barrel. There are several sets of Singer stocks floating around the market. This was about 15/20 years ago, but the guy that was making them sold them for $100 and after changing hands a few times they were up around $1000.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
Yes I have seen both types of Fake Singer grips the first set I seen were the Early RR without the rings around the screw holes with the ribs milled out and polished. The second type is Colt Rock grips that they took a checkering file and filed the rings around the screws so they had no rings around the screws and as we all know they are hollow with no mold numbers but they do not have the correct amount of lines of checkering between the screws .
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
Just be careful, as there is always someone out there that will make you a barrel. There are several sets of Singer stocks floating around the market. This was about 15/20 years ago, but the guy that was making them sold them for $100 and after changing hands a few times they were up around $1000.
I have seen the fake 1924 barrels too they were a poor job the Interlaced HP was pantographed on top and the K was struck with a stamp like you can buy at any major tooling supply store.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
By the way Bob's 1924 did end up with the correct barrel in it after he sold it ! He also did very well when he sold the guns as a pair . I sat on that barrel for 6/7 years before I found a good home for it , and now my mint all S marked 1916 has a brother a mint all H marked 1916 . Both have no markings on top of chambers they both have the S & H on the hood of barrel and the P on the back of the lugs .. Thank you Bob !!!!
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top