[Sparebux]

Considering buying this A1. You guys know who you are.... let me know what you think! I'll be glad to answer any particulars as i haven't many pictures yet but rest assured, I've given it a good once over!

 

[Sparebux]

 

[flintsghost]

The hammer is a Ithaca and definitely wrong. This pistol should have a wide Colt checkered hammer based on the guns in my collection and Clawson. The narrow checkered Colt hammer doesn't show up until in the 169xxxx serial area. The barrel should be a Colt and probably with an F on the bottom of the chamber and standard Colt 45 Auto on the lower left of the chamber and P on the left side of the link lug.

 

[usgi1911A1]

Hammer is wrong thin long spur with serrated. For that serial number range it should have short wide spur checkered. Thin long spur checkered don't start around serial number range 1673000, other than that whole gun seem to be correct to me. Need more photo to see better on finish surface and interior. What is the barrel marking? Magazine?

 

[usgi1911A1]

flintsghost got me by a few minutes lol.

 

[Scott Gahimer]

The hammer is not necessarily wrong. Colt used some serrated hammers. I've examined a few other Colts with the serrated hammers besides the ones I own. This one came from Chuck Clawson's collection. An actual inspection would have to be done to determine if all the wear patterns appropriately match. BTW, the information on the hammers manufactured by Gray Mfg. is in the Clawson book.

 

[dmthomp32]

The hammer is not necessarily wrong. Colt used some serrated hammers. I've examined a few other Colts with the serrated hammers besides the ones I own. This one came from Chuck Clawson's collection. An actual inspection would have to be done to determine if all the wear patterns appropriately match. BTW, the information on the hammers manufactured by Gray Mfg. is in the Clawson book.

Scott,

A bit off-topic but have you ever done a thread on your lighting and photography setup?

OP,

That is what looks like a solid war era 1911A1! Here is it's cousin! This a Colt I have had for a long time but haven't really posted or shared much.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

 

[Walter Rego]

My 1944 Colt M1911A1 is about 7300 numbers higher than the one posted by Sparebux and it has the wide spur checkered hammer. The barrel however is from an earlier gun as it has the G marking on the underside. I suspect that was a barracks switch sometime in it's time in service. Other than that it is as issued.

 

[buster1652]

what would be the correct letter on the underside of the barrell to match a 1104xxx frame number (I believe to be 1943) My barrel is marked f underneath and p on the lug. Is it original 1943?

 

[JohnnyP]

The F marked barrel would be correct in the serial number range of your Colt.

 

[flintsghost]

Wow, Scott, are you actually saying that even though Clawson doesn't mention the use of any narrow serrated hammers in Colts in his book, anywhere, and when he does mention narrow checkered hammers he says around 1.7 mil serial....you are saying that a serrated narrow hammer could be right in a gun that is 80,000 serials earlier than mentioned in the book? Do you have the actual equipment to do a forensic tool mark examination to see if the parts have been together and are you a recognized expert in such examinations. I'm not referring to a Colt appraiser but a forensic tool mark examiner. You know of course that if you fire one round through a pistol with the parts in place the internals will show the marks that would indicate they have always been together or at least been together prior to the examination.

In my collection I have 3 Colts that are undisputed as to being totally original except for possibly magazines. A 1.66 mil, a low 1.69 mil, and both have wide checkered Colt hammers in them. I have a high 1.69 mil which has a narrow Colt checkered hammer in it. dmthomp32's pictures don't look like a serrated Ithaca type hammer but rather like a narrow Colt checkered hammer. Since that is closer to the 1.7 mil serial that Clawson used as an approximate time, I would not doubt it as original from Colt.

 

[usgi1911A1]

Got me to thinking what's it like during the Colt Mfg Co during the war time years. They were making 100s of 1911A1s daily and Thousands every month. Everyone was working and hustling in overtime daily to meet its factory quota? They must be trying to compete the Remington Rand Co lol. Then maybe one day one of Colt employees checked the level in the parts bin saw that they were low on hammers. Need hammers quick so they called Greys Mfg to order their made hammers to deliver to help up the production! Cant have 1911A1's leave the building without hammer? Otherwise why would they pick up a few Greys hammer that's for Ithaca and install a few of Colts? Then replace a wide short spur by time serial number start 1670000? I bet they were running low is the answer? Wonder how many were on Colt 1911A1s? If Scott says it's original long thin spur with serrated in few of the Colt's then it is.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Colt was chronically behind in manufacture and shipments of pretty much all products for the war effort. The military kept increasing demands on everything and Colt did their best but while they built quality products they had only so much production capacity to handle it. If a vendor was late delivering raw materials the whole schedule on a product would slip further behind. Also...who knows how many employees were drafted into the service and had to be replaced by less trained people?

Such problems were pretty endemic throughout the industries supporting the war effort. At one point or another most contractors had problems of one sort or another to overcome...and we weren't getting bombed like we were doing to Germany or Japan.

 

[usgi1911A1]

Snidely, Yup, I believe that too ^^^^^^^

 

[Scott Gahimer]

Chuck Clawson and I examined 2 Colt pistols and the one I own that came from him...all within 10 serial numbers. All three had the same Gray Mfg. hammers that were original. One of those pistols was at the OGCA show the same weekend Chuck brought my gun to the show. The other pistol was on the opposite end of the same row. I saw it, told Chuck about it and we both went down and examined it. The other Colt was examined, but not purchased at a Louisville show a year or two later. The latest serial number examined with the Gray hammer was in the 2.2M range.

There have not been enough examined to nail down specific serial ranges, but we know they were used on some pistols. One can only speculate why they used them when they did.

And he mentions the Gray hammers in the book; just doesn't show them because the book was published before enough pistols had been examined. However, I am sure in my files, I've still got the letter he wrote on the pistol when he sold it.

I've been looking at these pistols long enough to recognize conflicting wear patterns on mating surfaces and to verify matching wear patterns as well.

 

[flintsghost]

Clawson Mentioned Gray Hammers on page 72 in the explanation of Figure 49 which were pictures of hammers. The Ithaca serrated manufactured by Wright Engineering Co. He states that they were intermixed with checkered hammers that Ithaca subcontracted from Colt in 1944 and 1945, which included hammers made by Gray Manufacturing Co. However no where in the book does he say Gray hammers were ever put in Colt Pistols. I also believe that it is problematic to believe that just because Clawson had a pistol in his collection that it would prove that the gun was correct. Many collectors own pistols that are not 100% correct. Clawson may have been one of them. And there is nothing wrong in that. We can't all get pristine examples every time we pick up a item. As an example I would point to Figure 42 on page 57 in the third edition. In his center small photo of the H inspection mark by Frank Hosmer, the gun is credited as (Authors Collection). The hammer is all the way forward against the frame and the photo is taken from above with no slide. The hammer is a finely serrated hammer that appears to be a post war Colt and is definitely narrow. This is on Ithaca 862144. In the other two pictures the hammer appears to be checkered but still narrow from the side view. But the closeup is not a mistake.

Parts trading among manufacturers was probably rampant during the war. We know it occurred in the carbine program. I suspect it happened elsewhere. However Springfield Armory was the storage and the shipping depot for all Government free issue items such as Springfield, flannary and HS barrels, slide stops etc. They are closer to Hartford than Ithaca or Remington Rand being within a very short drive. They had large amounts of parts. WW1 slide stops show up on 1911A1's with great regularity, yet you yourself told me that there is no evidence they were ever used by the manufacturers in new WW2 production. I'm merely stating the same for the hammers. There is no documentary evidence to show they were used on new production and there should be somewhere in the Colt or military ordnance archives. It's got to be more than Gahimer said so based on a total of 4 pistols that aren't in the same serial sequence.

 

[Scott Gahimer]

The hammer is a Ithaca and definitely wrong. This pistol should have a wide Colt checkered hammer based on the guns in my collection and Clawson'''...

Oh, I see how this works now. You say something in a photo is definitely wrong, based on 3 pistols in your collection and what you read in a book.

I say the hammer is not necessarily wrong, and show an original Colt pistol with a serrated Gray Mfg. hammer purchased from Clawson himself. I also say he and I examined three pistols, all within 10 serial numbers, with the same serrated hammers and cite other pistols examined with the serrated hammers which were original.

But you want to rag on me and tell people they shouldn't believe something because I said it. I didn't say the OP's hammer was definitely original. I haven't examined his pistol. I said it wasn't necessarily wrong. There's a difference.

You can believe anything you want to believe about your three pistols. I'll believe what what the evidence shows me and state my opinions when I want to. But we're supposed to believe you saying your pistols are undisputed original. Based on what? Your opinion? Get over your ego problem.

 

[Sparebux]

Guys, I apologize for the lack of pictures but they will come. Mean-time...the barrel is correct and marked with an "F" on bottom, a 'P" and 'Colt 45 AUTO' near the link area. The magazine has an 'S' on the top-front of the floor plate & is otherwise unmarked as far as I can tell. I'm slow to examine this one as its not been apart in over 40 years or more and the seller is a great friend of mine. Needless to say, I'm a little paranoid in handling such a fine pistol. Maybe you guys do this everyday! Me? Mot so much and this one is NOT something I need to learn on!!!

 

[Scott Gahimer]

Clawson Mentioned Gray Hammers on page 72 in the explanation of Figure 49 which were pictures of hammers. The Ithaca serrated manufactured by Wright Engineering Co. He states that they were intermixed with checkered hammers that Ithaca subcontracted from Colt in 1944 and 1945, which included hammers made by Gray Manufacturing Co. However no where in the book does he say Gray hammers were ever put in Colt Pistols. I also believe that it is problematic to believe that just because Clawson had a pistol in his collection that it would prove that the gun was correct. Many collectors own pistols that are not 100% correct. Clawson may have been one of them...

Yeah, sure. Tell us again what Clawson says about Colt and serrated hammers. And of course, we should all believe Clawson didn't know how to inspect a pistol. And we should believe you (a screen name), with all 3 of your pistols and your $34.95 book.

 

[Sparebux]

Please excuse the glare and over-all crappy photography.