[Monsai52]

... but the real determining factor, as I understand it, is whether the firearm will letter from Colt. In terms of actually lettering from the factory, only 1st (original) and 2nd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers will letter as real Colts. The 3rd Gen. Signature Series revolvers will not letter and thus are not considered real Colts despite the fact that many of the castings for both generations were made in Italy by the same sub. and many of the workers from the 2nd Gen. production apparently worked on the 3rd Gen. as well. The Signature Series was only a licensing agreement between Colt and the Signature Series manufacture. The Colt factory nothing to do with the 3rd Gen. revolver series. ...

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that Colt did letter the 3rd gens at one point, and only later stopped the practice.

Best regards,

 

[BruceWSims]

I have found these articles helpful

Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. .........

(delete)
...... were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Black powder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

This was my understanding when I bought my Dragoon.

"That's my story an' I'm stickin' to it" ;-)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MARKFAIN]

And the serial numbers continued from where they left off. The Robert E Lee and Grant was where the whole ball of wax started.

Mark. CAC Corp


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[MARKFAIN]

Some people just talk without thinking. And yes you are right there was a letter in each box.
Thanks for mentioning that. I forgot


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[Armybrat]

As Goofy would say, "Well, gworsh!"

If the 2nd & 3rds aren't real Colts, then neither is this 1851 Navy, made in London in 1855 by Colt:

 

[Billscases]

Great point!

 

[steg]

QUOTE=MARKFAIN;762159]Ok where did you get your information from.


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FYI I got this information directly from Anthony Imperato when he was doing the marketing for his father at their Brooklyn factory. Apart from that, the trouble in determining whether the 3rd generation Colts are "real Colts" is due to the fact that when the bean counters at Colt forced the company to drop the manufacture and sale of the 2nd generation percussion Colts, it left Lou Imperato, the sub-contractor who actually made these guns, in the lurch. It almost bankrupted him. So, to prevent a massive and expensive lawsuit, Colt let him produce and market what became known as the Signature Series Colts.
However, there are still those in power at Colt who still resent this and bad mouth this every chance they get. This, of course, falls into the hands of purists and bad-mothers---most of whom do not even own a Colt, or even a gun, of any kind.
One of the resultant problem with this series is with their serial numbers. One cannot get any serial number information for these guns. It is thought by some that this is because of a dispute between Colt Blackpowder and the mother company about royalties. I do know that the serial number records were destroyed when the Colt Blackpowder Company ceased operations. However, a former employee was able to salvage the shipping records that contain the serial numbers. He is waiting for someone to buy them from him.

 

[MARKFAIN]

Say hello for me tell him CAC Corp.


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[LonesomePigeon]

One could argue that only the Colt's designed during Samuel Colt's lifetime were real Colt's since he had nothing to do with later designs. I speak with tongue in cheek of course. My personal opinion is that anything authorized to bear the Colt name is a real Colt but some are more desirable/collectible than others.

 

[BruceWSims]

As Goofy would say, "Well, gworsh!"

If the 2nd & 3rds aren't real Colts, then neither is this 1851 Navy, made in London in 1855 by Colt:

Yeah...and I want a pair of those grips for my Dragoon. I love that look.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MtnSpur]

I'm kind of glad I wasn't attracted to Cap & Ball Black Powder as I certainly am uneducated enough to never have bought one. I had read about the caustic effects of black powder, pro and con, and decided my area of interest would start with smokeless and more forward. Owning pistols (semis) and DA was my initial start into Colts. I added a few SAAs and recent production semis like the Commanders and 70/80 Series. I reckon I'm easily confused about the old models, so noted. I'd prefer a reproduction in smokeless and cartridge IF I wanted the look but in all honesty, I'm stump stupid when it comes to the early models. My area is hammerless, DA and SAA (still learning a lot and need to learn more) before I wade further into that arena. I wish Jim Martin was closer to me, I'd be at his place on a weekly basis. That man knows his stuff and a great resource for this forum. My ownership includes but not limited to 105 year old hammerless up to and including 2013/14 production of the 1911 platforms. Never disappointed in any Colt I've acquired. They are treasures to me.

 

[fingersmcgee]

And the serial numbers continued from where they left off. The Robert E Lee and Grant was where the whole ball of wax started.

Mark. CAC Corp


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The serial numbers for the C1121 1851 Navy started at 4201 which was where the serial numbers of the 2nd model 1851 Navy 1st gens left off. All other 2nd Gens started 500 to 1000 numbers higher than where the 1st Gen revolvers left off. The Grant & Lee commemoratives and the other limited editions had their own distinctive serial numbers.

 

[dandak]

The original Walkers made in 1847 were made by Eli Whitney and NOT in any Colt factory (there wasnt any factory then) so that argument is a moot point. No one wonders if they are true colts or not. Colt licensed out several modern guns (like 25 autos) in the 1970s. Colt gun in a Colt box. Same with the 3rd gen cap and balls. Colt licensed them. Colt box, Colt warranty card. They are Colts.

 

[Boge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5JvchsfnmQ

 

[clang]

Let's look at the documents that came with a Sig Series gun.

The box says Colt and so does the instruction booklet cover, but the warranty card is marked for the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company in Brooklyn NY:




A picture in the manual calls it a Colt revolver (with Registered mark):




You are commended on owning your new Colt revolver in the manual:




The manual refers to having a gun customized at their Colt Custom Shop in Hartford, CT:


On the balance, I would have to say that Sig Series are REAL Colts. The Brooklyn facility was an authorized manufacturer for Colt.

 

[Monsai52]

I just posed this question to Paul over in the Colt Archive sticky, it'll be interesting to get Colt's opinion on the status of the 3rd gen Signature Series.

Best regards,

 

[Colt75]

Given the large number of unusual variations (many more than the 2nd Generations BP Colts) I think the Signature Series is going to be very collectable.

 

[Monsai52]

Here's Paul's response from the Colt Archive thread re: 3rd gen Signature Series. It's post #240.

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/lounge/86396-colt-archives-24.html

Best regards,

 

[Monsai52]

I should have just cut and pasted the answer.

Best regards,

Originally Posted by Monsai52
Paul,

There's a current thread in the Percussion Revolver section re: whether or not the 3rd gen Signature Series are considered Colts. I know Colt doesn't currently letter the 3rd series, but did Colt ever letter them? And what is Colt's position on the 3rd series Signature revolvers?

Best regards,



I saw this, and have had many discussions with people on the phone regarding this. We do not letter these guns - I believe that we used to, but we do not maintain any of the shipping records, so I think we stopped doing that.

As far as our position, it isn't really a position. The fact is the guns were produced under a licensing agreement with Colt Blackpowder Arms, manufactured to Colt's specifications. Now, does that make it a true Colt or not? I'm sure that debate will never have any consensus. My personal take is that they are not true Colt's, but that they do hold their own place within Colt collecting. Comparable situations would be the Argentine contract 1911's (not the Colt produced ones - the Argentinian produced ones), the Norwegian contract 1911's, the Spanish produced .25 autos, and the current Walther produced .22's.

EDIT: I would also potentially add things like Colt knives, bows, holsters, etc. to this mix.

 

[scstrain]

Now, does that make it a true Colt or not? I'm sure that debate will never have any consensus.

There is your answer in a nut shell. We will never know for sure, it will always be debated. Wouldn't it be cool to have one that did letter with Colt (If they did do a few) and have a copy of the letter. That would be a rare bird for sure.