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Discussion Starter #1
1) I posted this same question on the S&W forum for the model 10 (a gun that is still in production). However, here I'd like to ask if there are any LEO's out there that still carry the M-10's Colt counterpart, the old Colt Official Police .38?

The OP was discontinued in either 1969 or 1979 (Colt rep once told me 1979 but I've read 1969 from other sources). Are their still any policemen or any LEO's that carry the old Official Police?

If that question isn't hard enough to asnwer, let me post a second one.

2) Are their any LEOs out there that carry a pre-1945 version of the Official Police? (with the half moon sight and smaller ejector rod cap and a few other differences. A nicer looking gun in my opinion)

[This message has been edited by Doug.38PR (edited 05-25-2005).]
 

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I used to carry a 4" Webley Mark V, rechambered to .45 ACP, while working part-time jobs in uniform.

Also, I carried a Colt 1917, made in 1918, on duty. Shot a 99 1/3 % on a 60 round qualification course. This would have been around 1996.
 

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Doug38PR; The original E/I frame O. Police,with the "leaf springs",was phased out in 1968-69,when the Official Police Mark III,built on the J frame package,with a coil mainspring came in. This series of O.P.'s was probably discontinued in 1979,so both answers are right.

Colt had the O.P. Mk.III chambered in .38 Special,along with the 4" only Bull Barrel,Metropolitan model for a couple of years;this later gun is rare. Even in the late 60's,some P.D.'s were fearing lawsuits from the ACLU types in use of that "vicious" .357 magnum,that the Trooper Mk.III and Lawman Mk.III were chambered in(S&W did the same,making similiar guns,but some in .38 special only,for the "P.C. liberal bleeding hearts".)

While I agree,that pre war O.P.s,are better fitted(by the way,some pre wars had the ramped sights!),I would NOT stake my life today on metal that was 75 years old or so! It is one thing to have a collector vehicle of this vintage break down due to metal fatigue,another if a vintage aircraft has this problem,while at altitude, or your your "protector",breaking down in the midst of a "social situation". I have had very few "parts failures" in my 100 to 50 year old Colts and Smiths,and some have been fired extensively with "serious" loads",but there is always the first time! Bud
 

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I don't know of any cops using revolvers of any kind or caliber for duty carry - except a few that use 2" snubbies as off-duty and/or backup guns.
 

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I was shocked, the other day, on the news, I cought a shot of a Chicago PD officer carrying a revolver (no ID) and the "old fashioned" night stick.

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Take care,
KG59 out!

"There ain't no freekin' Indians around here..."

G.A. Custer 1876
 

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I still carry a wheelgun when on duty. My Colts do fine. Sometimes when LEO's go to the different hi-cap pistols it is to cover up a lack of training--more shots to try to hit with, rather than teaching the fundamentals of aimed fire. My company allow the officers to pick their weapon and when they qualify you can see a difference----the revolver carring officers generally have higher scores and are more competent in the way they handle the weapon.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kilogulf59:

I was shocked, the other day, on the news, I cought a shot of a Chicago PD officer carrying a revolver (no ID) and the "old fashioned" night stick.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old fashioned night stick? You mean the old Billy Clubs? That look like little minature baseball bats?
I think nightsticks are a more modern term for the kind they use now that have kind of an L shape.
I'll bet he had a sweet ol' Irish accent too. ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coltshooter1:
I still carry a wheelgun when on duty. My Colts do fine. Sometimes when LEO's go to the different hi-cap pistols it is to cover up a lack of training--more shots to try to hit with, rather than teaching the fundamentals of aimed fire. My company allow the officers to pick their weapon and when they qualify you can see a difference----the revolver carring officers generally have higher scores and are more competent in the way they handle the weapon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My friends are often taken back when they see I carry a revolver (espcially an old Official Police .38) for CHL and when I go to the range. They all have either, Glocks 9mm, Tarus 9mm (Berretta type), Browning HI Power 9mm, Ruger 9mm, Springfield 9mm, etc.
They all get pretty good groupings at the range along with me and my revolver though, sometimes better.
I'm partial to the revolver myself, particularly the .38 special. Frequently I get the line, "revolvers are outdated. Criminals are more heavely armed now. And what if your in a 'gang situation.'"
Well, all it takes is one shot to hit someone. (sometimes two to get them to drop unless they are doped up on something) If I can't hit someone within 6 shots then I'm probably gonna die anyway. In a gang situation your probably going to die whether you have a revolver or automatic if you are that outmanned and outgunned. Besides, if you start shooting at the 'gang' then most if not all are probably going to disperse and run for cover. My way of thinking, I want all 6 shots to hit a different villain and count. If I have the need to go offensive and have high cap, get an M-1 or AR-15 Carbine. A handgun is a defensive weapon, rifle is for offense.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonewolf:
Doug38PR; The original E/I frame O. Police,with the "leaf springs",was phased out in 1968-69,when the Official Police Mark III,built on the J frame package,with a coil mainspring came in. This series of O.P.'s was probably discontinued in 1979,so both answers are right.

Colt had the O.P. Mk.III chambered in .38 Special,along with the 4" only Bull Barrel,Metropolitan model for a couple of years;this later gun is rare. Even in the late 60's,some P.D.'s were fearing lawsuits from the ACLU types in use of that "vicious" .357 magnum,that the Trooper Mk.III and Lawman Mk.III were chambered in(S&W did the same,making similiar guns,but some in .38 special only,for the "P.C. liberal bleeding hearts".)

While I agree,that pre war O.P.s,are better fitted(by the way,some pre wars had the ramped sights!),I would NOT stake my life today on metal that was 75 years old or so! It is one thing to have a collector vehicle of this vintage break down due to metal fatigue,another if a vintage aircraft has this problem,while at altitude, or your your "protector",breaking down in the midst of a "social situation". I have had very few "parts failures" in my 100 to 50 year old Colts and Smiths,and some have been fired extensively with "serious" loads",but there is always the first time! Bud
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to worry. Both my .38s have been well checked over by factory standards for fatigue and are in fine shape.

In regard to the Trooper, OP MkIII and Lawman, I thought the problem most people had with policemen carrying .357 was not because they were concerned with the criminal's well being (although like you said there are plenty of bleeding heart liberals out there that value the life of he who values no life over other people) but from overpenetration. The .357 so they say has been known to pass through the perpetraitor and into an innocent bystandard.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Muley Gil:
I used to carry a 4" Webley Mark V, rechambered to .45 ACP, while working part-time jobs in uniform.

Also, I carried a Colt 1917, made in 1918, on duty. Shot a 99 1/3 % on a 60 round qualification course. This would have been around 1996.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW! And you didn't "feel outgunned" with all the dangerous ciminals out there with uzzies and 9mm Glocks? ;-)
I'm impressed. Your supervisor let you do that too. Well, in my way of thinking, as long as you can pull the trigger and the gun goes BANG and hits were it's supposed to then it's a fine gun and got a long way to go.
 

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Good Day to All,

Coltshooter1; I suspect you are correct and agree with you concerning the hi-cap pistol issue. As more Viet Nam vets became police officers, the more the hi-cap pistols became en vogue, coincidence? Though I must admit, if I were in assigned to a one-man patrol car, I would feel better with a reliable hi-cap semi-auto on my hip.

Doug.38PR; I do not know if he was Irish but he didn’t miss many meals I can tell you that.
In so far as the impact weapons are concerned:
· 12 inch long (approx.): “Billy Club”, short nightstick, or truncheon.
· 22 to 24 inch long (approx.): Nightstick or baton (IMO: an excellent and under-rated defensive/offensive weapon. One and two-handed techniques are easy to learn and remember without much practice).
· 26 to 36 inch long (approx.): Riot Baton, two-handed.
· 24 inch long (approx.) “L” handle: PR-24 (a variation of the Okinawan Tonfa which is an adaptation of a millstone or well handle). An excellent weapon if the proper training techniques are mastered and the user must practice on a continuing basis. It is very clumsy to hang on a Sam Brown though.

Whether its handguns or impact weapons, everything boils down to training and mindset on the part of the individual. A revolver is no less a weapon than it was fifty years ago. Ironically, the statistics on shooting encounters have not changed either, usually at night, low to no light, 1 to 7 meters range, only several shots fired, and a duration of a few seconds.

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Take care,
KG59 out!

"There ain't no freekin' Indians around here..."

G.A. Custer 1876
 

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Most documented law-enforcement shooting occure at 7 feet or less and less than 6 rounds are fired by all parties involved,unless it occures in California or N.Y.(they blow the national average.) I try to explain this to all of the people I train as armed security officers. I believe that new people in security should use a medium frame .38 or 357(with light loads--110grain sjhp). It makes no sense to go out and buy a expensive semi-auto and not even know how to handle the weapon safely. I taught a cless this week and had one female office who had not shot any handguns before--she used a old S&W M28 and qualified in the high 90's.(she works for a local college as a campus security officer) The only person to bring an auto did not even use it as during cleaning instruction he tore the wespon apart and could not get it to go back together!
 

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There are a couple OP's still on the street in NYC. I know for a fact that there were more than a few still boppiong around in the mid 1990's when I was doing a census of them! Also, there are still a few M10's floating about.

Interestingly, the M10's have soldiered on in the hands of the 2nd rate armed LEO units here in NYC. Revenue train in the subway, Port Authority police, etc.
 

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A minor point, but of all the calumnies that have been heaped on the heads of VN vets, I'd surely hate to see that the shift to hi-cap autos was commonly attributed to their moving into LE roles.

If one had to find THE reason for a move to hi-cap autos, I'd suggest the FBI move to autoloaders after the infamous Miami Shootout. State and Local LEA's have tended to follow the FBI lead in training and equipment pretty closely over the years and they've been the trendsetter. FBI stats surely reflect the issue of high cap autoloaders in the rounds fired per incident and rounds fired per hit....a factor of poor motivation and poor training on the part of many new entries into LE organizations. It's certainly not based on the increase of VN Vets into LE ranks though every war which has seen an increase in firepower in the hands of the troops has seen a massive increase in rounds fired per enemy casualty.

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"And the blithe revolver began to sing/ To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring..."
 

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Doug.38PR,

No, I never felt undergunned. During my last year and a half of badge toting in the States, I carried a S&W M625 3" .45 ACP. My double speedloader pouchs carried 4 fullmoon clips full of 230 gr Hydra Shocks, 2 nose down, 2 nose up. At the range, not only did I reload faster than most of the officers carrying Sigs and Glocks in 9mm, I shot higher scores as well.
 

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Good Morning Folks,

Since we are greatly off-topic anyway¬Ö

To clarify; I am not anti semi-auto. All other things being equal, who would not want an extra six plus rounds in their handgun when actually in harms way? I personally feel conversely that there is too great of a reliance, perhaps subconsciously, on those extra rounds.

Rm vivas: To the best of my knowledge, NYPD was one of the last major police departments to make the switch to semi’s, the .38 Special only revolvers being grandfathered in for those already using them if they chose. I would imagine the Port Authority and Transit Police work the same way thus explaining the M10’s in use. BTW…“2nd rate armed LEO units”…ouch, a little harsh.

In my opinion, the NYPD, through excellent training, proved the old adage “It’s not the gun but the gunner”. If I am not mistaken, they were/are very strict with firearms i.e. .38 Special (only) Revolvers and 158 gn LRN ammunition exclusively at that time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 256M-S:
A minor point, but of all the calumnies that have been heaped on the heads of VN vets, I'd surely hate to see that the shift to hi-cap autos was commonly attributed to their moving into LE roles.

If one had to find THE reason for a move to hi-cap autos, I'd suggest the FBI move to autoloaders after the infamous Miami Shootout. State and Local LEA's have tended to follow the FBI lead in training and equipment pretty closely over the years and they've been the trendsetter. FBI stats surely reflect the issue of high cap autoloaders in the rounds fired per incident and rounds fired per hit....a factor of poor motivation and poor training on the part of many new entries into LE organizations. It's certainly not based on the increase of VN Vets into LE ranks though every war which has seen an increase in firepower in the hands of the troops has seen a massive increase in rounds fired per enemy casualty.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

256M-S: I am not sure of your exact meaning here¬Ö

“A minor point, but of all the calumnies that have been heaped on the heads of VN vets, I'd surely hate to see that the shift to hi-cap autos was commonly attributed to their moving into LE roles.”

First off, I personally have not heard any disparagement of VN vets in MANY years due to direct and/or indirect education of the public, thank God (I really do not want to go further down that road, thank you). Second, I do not feel that a switch to hi-cap semi-automatic pistols is necessarily a bad thing in of itself (refer to my first paragraph).

Two points that may make my hypothesis clear are (1) the time line between the rise in hi-cap adoption and the percentage of VN vets on the various PD’s, and (2) this statistic from the DoD; the average number of rounds expended in Vietnam to kill one enemy solder with the M-16 was 50,000. (Interestingly, the USMC, in 1942 on Guadalcanal Island, issued approximately 25 rounds per rifleman per day. Their issue weapon: the 1903 Springfield rifle, a five-shot bolt gun.)

Concerning the infamous FBI Miami Shootout, it occurred in April of 1986, and the transition to semi’s was already underway. The shootout fiasco, which is attributed more to inappropriate tactics than insufficient weapons, may have hastened the hi-cap adoption however it did not start it. It was directly responsible for the adoption of the 10mm round though.

For the record, of the eight agents involved, three were using S&W 459’s. These agents/weapons account for 43 of the 72 rounds fired (numbers vary by one or two depending on the report).

In summery:

One, I feel the adaptation of hi-cap semi-automatics gives many a perceived security blanket. This, perhaps in part, is due to actual combat experience with semi/full automatic weapons fire, specifically the Viet Nam war.

Two, it is the human being (training) not the equipment (latest and greatest wonder gun) that gets the job done…there is no “magic pill”.


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Take care,
KG59 out!

"There ain't no freekin' Indians around here..."

G.A. Custer 1876
 

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RM Vivas said: Interestingly, the M10's have soldiered on in the hands of the 2nd rate armed LEO units here in NYC. Revenue train in the subway, Port Authority police, etc.

Port Authority went to DAO Smith&Wesson 9mm 5904? full size and 3953 DAO compact both stainless steel back in 1995.
It was a complete switch no M10 heavy barrels or 2 inch M10 grandfathered. All 1200+ sidearms turned in were "smelted" a real shame.
 

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Hello Doug .38PR!

This is a rather "belated" reply to your post but I was looking around for info in SEARCH and found this post.The answer is a "resounding" yes! I have carried (duty weapon) an OFFICIAL POLICE since Dec. 24, 1971. The same one! I have been a very involved OP owner over the years. Taking care of timing issues and reblued finish (twice) has "reaped me a harvest". As you probably know the OP is a very precision instrument but the real reason for my endurance was kind and loving parents who sacrificed so I could be protected by "GOD" and a Colt 38. They were not wealthy and the 100 dollars my PD trade-in OP cost was a real stretch. For them, I still carry it to remind me how fortunate I've been. I do, from time to time, pack a METROPOLITAN that I've been "qualified" with and recently competed in a Combat Match with the same. Grandfathered in, you might say. Thanks for asking! David:)
 

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Official Police

While just about all Law Enforcement agencies have gone to tupperware pistols, I believe the Auxillary Police in my area are still armed with 38 revolvers. If I were one , I would carry either my Official Police, Official Police Mark 3 or a pre Mark 3 38 Trooper. If not a Colt then a S&W 15 or 10. If I went with a 38 revolver I would feel adequately armed. With today's high performance 158 lhp ammunition , you are far outclassing the old 38 ammo. It should almost be considered a different caliber.
 
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