Colt Forum banner

Colt DA Army Special .38 with English Proofs??

5K views 26 replies 10 participants last post by  COLTDAGUY 
#1 ·
Hi,
Picked up a Colt Army Special DA Revolver today and was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to share some knowledge. It has several proofs that I do not know what they stand for, one is "GSH in a circle above the thumb latch and under the butt beside the lanyard loop is an E and sideways M. It has the NFP proof that I imagine stands for Nitro proof fired. Under the butt beside the lanyard loop is the number 6293. The serial number is 398350, it also has the info on the right side of the barrel .38 1.15" 4 tons. Is it WWI vintage?? Any help greatly appreciated
 
#2 ·
The Blue Book states they were manufactured from 1908-1927 so it sounds like your revolver could had done time in the British Service during the war. The GSH sounds like a military acceptance mark as do the E and M. The NFP is a British proof stamp as is reference to tons on the barrel. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than me will chime in.

Any chance of good pics? I'd like to see it.
 
#3 ·
This gun could be one of the approximately 26,000 Army Specials purchased by the Greek Govt. between 1914-17. Your serial # is crca 1914. The butt marking is actually EB,then the sidewards "M".

Does the gun have a 4 1/2" bbl. measured from the front of the cylinder to the muzzle?? These guns originally had wooden grips or stocks,and the above lenght bbl. or 5" when they were shipped to Greece

The gun may have found its way to Britain,hence the proof marks.

What I DON't quite get is the GHS mark in the circle!! He was a U.S. Govt. inspector during World War One,handling production/inspection of our 1917 Model Colt and S&W .45 cal. revolvers. This sounds like the same "mark" that he placed on some of the 1917s.

Just "speculation"-but he MIGHT have handled the inspection of these guns before they left Hartford & went to Greece.

Thats about all I can "speculate" based upon your post,and what info I can quickly lay my hands on. Be interested in knowing the history of this gun

Bud
 
#4 ·
Fascinating. The serial dates it to 1915. The 4 ton nomenclature is British, the same as they used for Lend-Lease guns in WWII. I have not heard of any Army Specials being used in WWI, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are good references for the WWII era, but none I know of for WWI. Another possibility is that it may have been sent to England before the U.S. entered WWII as the NRA had an appeal for Americans to send any usable weapons to Great Britain to defend against the Nazis.

Hope someone else can help you with the proofmarks.

B.W.
 
#5 ·
Wow,
Thanks for the replys!! The gun is definately a bringback. I purchased it from a gentleman that inherited it from his brothers estate. He said his brother was in Pattons 20th Corp (Ghost Corp). I also purchased a P38 AC no date that is rather rare from him and initially turned down the Colt thinking it was no big thing. I will break out the camera and post some pictures. Also the markings on the butt are definately E and a sideways M. The gun is tight, finish is 50% with scattered light pitting.
Many Thanks!!
 
#6 ·
The French also bought in excess of 15,000,in the same 4.5" bbl. configuration during World War One,but I doubt if they had the "sidewards M" after the E.

Just for "laughs",these were the only 2 large military orders Colt ever got for the Army Special,but U.S. Police agencies loved them,so around 1926-27,virtually the same gun,with a few "improvements",that went through the majority of Colts line around this time,became the "Official Police",staying in production until 1969.

Ironically,our own military never bought the Army Special,but did buy some Official Polices,then a wartime version called the Commando,during W.W. Two.

The gun MIGHT have been a private buy by a British officer in World War One-but I think their personal weapons had to be .455 caliber in World War One.

Can't wait to see the photos.

Bud
 
#8 ·
Wow,
This is kinda wierd. You were right about the GHS inspector. I found the following info on him:

U.S. military issue Model 1917. "GHS" is a U.S. military inspectors mark. The initials stand for Colonel Gilbert H. Stewart, who inspected Smith & Wesson and Colt M1917 .45 Revolvers starting in 1915. Inspector's markings and U.S. property markings are not found on revolvers that were manufactured for the civilian market. M1917 U.S. military issue revolvers should have a lanyard ring on the bottom of the grip frame.

Apparently this firearm was stamped early in his inspector career (first year) and I can find no reference to him stamping Army Specials. Odd bird indeed!!

Sounds like it is time to pay Colt for research and a letter.


Thanks!!
 
#9 ·
The plain wood stocks on the gun certainly give credence to "my theory" that it is one of those that went to the Greeks. Army Specials had the black,"hard rubber" stylized "C" Colt stocks,as shipped to "civilians",except for some special orders with the finely checkered stocks normally found on the Officer Target models.

Barrel length looks to be the correct length,for these guns as described in the "bible" of Colt collecting(but not "infallible!),the Wilson and Sutherland book. They do mention a "B" between the E and sidewards M on the butt.

You really have a piece of history there,and it just goes to show that there are still rare guns out there that are still to be found!! "IF only the gun could talk",has probably been overused,but this Colt would have some tales for the 30 years before the Patton Corps vet got hold of it! Might well have ended its military career with a German who got it in Greece during the occupation in W.W. II. Handguns were in great demand by the occupying troops.

Greece was still in the British political "sphere of influence" in World War One,and this could explain the proof marks,but the "GHS" mark is baffling! I have several World War One .455 Colts and Smiths used by the Brits(including Canada) and "0" have any U.S.inspector marks!

Bud /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
#10 ·
waffenwerk:
First, you need to size your photos for webpage use.
Second, the stamps are British commercial proofs, which suggest that the revolver at one time was sold on the British commercial market.
NP is nitro proof, but I find no reference anywhere to an F stamp.
In 1941 the British Purchasing Commission bought 50,000 Official Police revolvers in .38/200 (.38 S&W) from Colt, but as has been pointed out, the name had been changed to OP in 1927.
 
#11 ·
FWIW - The limited BB proof marks section shows an Austrian NPF proof with the F being the Ferlach proof house. Not saying Austrian, just a thought direction for the additional letter. The "sideways M" would appear to be a Greek Sigma. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
#12 ·
I agree with A1A about the Greek Sigma symbol. That was my first impression upon seeing it, and the suggested Greek connection would support that conclusion.

The inspector stamp is puzzling. I can imagine some situations where it could have happened, but they do not seem very logical.

A factory letter is needed.
 
#13 ·
ok i`ll put in my .02, the frame has to be part of the greek purchase. the brit`s however were very fond of punching proof all over a gun and britsh law required each chamber to be proofed, the cyl is not so proofed. the bbl has likely been replaced sometime after the war with a surplus {reclaimed from a destroyed gun} brit bbl.i cant explain the inspector mark but to me it doesn`t look like u.s. military mark.
 
#14 ·
icdux; this "GHS" in a circle IS the mark of Lt. Col. Gilbert H. Stewart,who inspected at BOTH Colt and S&W and was for a while head of Springfield Armory. Interstingly,he was inspecting at both Colt and S&W when that Army Special was made,at least according to Pate's book. Many photos of his "mark" in Pate's book on Secondary Handguns of W.W. II.

I also own a very early S&W 1917,with the dished grips and grooved hammer sides,and it has the identical GHS mark in the same place; upper left hand corner by hammer.It is a Govt. mark,but how in ended up in a gun going to the Greeks,before we were "officially" in W.W. One,adds mystery to this gun!

Bud
 
#16 ·
Hi,
Just got back from the family get together and read the string. I can definetely dispel the parts gun theory. There are british proofs on the frame and cylinder! I just took the gun apart!! The side plate has the same serial number stamped on the inside as the frame does as well as the inside of the crane, all match the serial number in the frame in the crane recess. I thought the barrel replacement would be a possibility until I found the British proof marks between the cylinder stop notches at the rear of cylinder between every chamber (looks like a crown with line under it and a P under the line). This same proof mark is located on the right side of the frame slightly above the front hook of the triggerguard. The proofs are small and easily overlooked as they are only 4mm high and 2.2mm wide and are shallow. Also there is a H stamped under the barrel, above the serial number in the crane recess on the frame, also on the rear face of the cylinder. The marks on the side plate appears to have maybe occured when the side plate became loose and potruded above the frame and became dinged somehow because there are no tool marks on the inside edege of the frame. I will be happy to post photos of the same if someone will let me know how to cut the size of the photos down, I use photobucket for photo storage. I did not mean to cause problems with oversize photos and will correct it as soon as I figure it out.

Many Thanks!!
 
#18 ·
Hi,
Got the photos resized. Thanks!!
Here are the other photos of the British proofs on the frame and cylinder and of the SN's.
Will call Colt today if they are open and check on aquiring a letter.











Thanks for all the imput!! Had no idea to look for the small British proofs on every chamber and frame untill a poster pointed this out.

Initially was wondering if the gun was used in WWI. Had no idea it would have USA Inspectors mark with British Proof Marks on the frame, Barrel and Cylinder and a Sigma M, possibly headed for the Greeks!

Now, instead of finding out the answer to one question I have three questions to ask Colt.

Many Thanks!!
 
#20 ·
Hi Waffenwerks,
This is a most interesting thread! Let me present a possible scenerio on your Colt that accounts for all of the markings on it.

First off your gun is definitely one of the Greek contract revolvers... all of them had the Sigma on the butt and the lanyard loop. A number of them made it back to the US after WW I and before WW II. If you look around, you can still find them from time to time.

Note the four digit number on the butt to the right of the lanyard loop in your photo. This is the same style number that is found on a number of Colt Official Police revolvers that were procured from the American market by the British Purchasing commission during 1939 and 1940. These guns received British proofs (the small marks in the cylinder flutes and the two marks on the barrel). Because of lend lease, several contracts for the Official police and the S&W pre-Victory Models that fell in the 800xxx to 999xxx were US Ordnance proofed and inspected.

Some of the civilian procured guns also were inspected and accepted by Army Ordnance personnel. Col. Gilbert H. Stewart (GHS) was assigned to the Springfield Armory between September 13, 1938 and June 10, 1942. These guns were accepted at Springfield during this time frame. The NP proof, (Check to see if the NFP you mentioned is just "tool chatter" and the "F" is just a misstamped second "P") along with the 4 tonnes marking are typical POST WW II release markings by the British. (See .380 No. 2 Revolver - Ian Skennerton)

I think your gun was a Greek contract revolver that made it back to the US between the wars. It was donated to or bought by tthe Bristish purchasing commission and was accepted by GHS at the Springfield armory during the Blitz. You gun was released by the British and re-imported into the US in the early 1950s (Tonne Markings).

My table partner bought one at the Reno show last week that has all of the features of yours except it was NOT a Greek contract gun first.

Tell me ... Is your guns chambers bored to accept the British 38-200 round? (38 S&W in US terms) ?

All of the above is documented in the official Army records on Springfield Armory and in Charlie Pate's book.Colt can give you the official info on the Greek contract ... Hope that helps. Bob Best
 
#21 ·
Hi,
It is pretty confusing. The gun is chambered for .38 Special. The gun was not reimported after WWII as the gun was taken off a German in Loraine France during WWII and was brought back personally by the trooper with a P38 AC no date that I also purchased. I also purchased a box of goodies that belonged to him with a Nazi Arm Band a WWI Iron Cross 1917, and a Bravery medal from Belgium some French currency and misc items all in a WWII red cross ditty bag. Apparently this guy picked up all the souviners he could and brought them back to simple old Lake City S.C. and kept them untill he passed in 1984. I purchased the items from his brother who could care less about a gun and is not a collector of anything.
I hope Colt will be able to shed some light.
I speculate that the gun was merely inspected by the US Govt for use and the US decided to free up some guns for the British, so the gun goes to the London Proof House receives their proofs, then the gun goes to Greece and is somehow captured by the Germans or picked up in Greece via private purchase and made it's way to France and fell into the hands of the Germans and was taken by my friends brother. (The NFP has the little design above it like the British NP mark carries, so I imagine it is a British Mark also Tons is spelled TONS on the barrel and not tonnes, I do not know if that is important or not. Hopefully Colt will be able to shed some light, I called Kathy Hoyt today at the Archives Dept but they are closed, will ty again Monday.
 
#22 ·
Hi Waffenwerks,
I think if you check out the "tons or tonnes" (It can be spelled either way) markings that you will find the the British used this marking when they released revolvers for commercial sales after WW II. Check "The .380 Enfield No. Revolver" book by Stamps and Skennerton Page 115 for the reference. Also, You can check the National Archives records For the Annual Reports for the Army for 1938 to 1942 that will show the British purchasing commision contracts and the use of Army Ordnance personnel to inspect them. Also check on the US aceptance markings found on S&W pre Victory Model revolvers in the 800xxx to 999xxx serial number range (1938-1940)and the Colt Official Police Models to see their inspection markings. You can also verify this in Charlie Pate's Book "US Handguns of World War II - the secondary pistols and revolvers".
It sounds as though the previous owner did not tell you personally that he brought back the Colt from Europe, only his brother did and as you said he did not know much about guns... I was an Army Officer during the Viet Nam War, but that doesn't necessarialy mean that the ChiComm Tokarev I own came from SEA...
Your Colt is an interesting and a somewhat unusual version with a very nice service history behind it. I know a number of WW II military collector's that would enjoy having it in their collection. Post WW II release markings will not detract from the value of the Colt like they did with P-38s...Bob Best
 
#23 ·
Hi,
WOW, that was a lot to digest at one time! It sure appears that you know your Colt's. You are probably right. I could be placing too much creedence in the old gentleman's story. Just wish there was a way to know all the particulars for certain.

I have collected firearms for many years and was mainly concerned with the rarity,value and the condition and have never given much thought about the route the gun takes when it is shipped or the battles it was involved in or the men who were saved by the gun, killed by or died with it, untill now.

This Revolver may have had a dramatic role or no role at all in anything important. A lot can happen in 90 years.

At any rate it is a COLT, it made the trip over the sea and came back to nest. I'll give it a home. I never knew my friends brother but I wish I had, the revolver cannot tell it's story but I think you will agree, the grouping pictured below, that he sweated for, says quite a bit. I feel lucky to own each piece.




I'll Call Colt Monday and order a letter. If this is an important piece I will let everyone know, if not I think I will just keep it a secret.

Many Thanks!!
Happy Holidays!!
Tim

PS: If the Nazi items offend anyone please let me know and I will remove the photo. I am 100% American and if I had been born early enough to fight in WWII I would have had my own grouping to show you.
 
#24 ·
Hi Tim,
That's a Great Photo! Both my dad and my uncle fought in WW II. My dad fought in the pacific and my uncle landed at Omaha Beach on D-day. Many of my other Colt mentors were vets also... all of them deserve our deepest "Thank You" for their service to our country... Both my father and my uncle had similiar "collections" and many stories to tell...probably quite like your friend's stories... All should be remembered and honored.

Having grown up listening to these stories and handling the "captured" guns they brought back, I started collecting military weapons. I used to collect P-38s and Lugers ... A big P-38 collector friend, Orv Reichert, and I collected together in the 70s and 80s before he retired to Washington state. I had 43 P-38s at one pointin my collection... I liked the Walther ac manufactured guns the best and had a number of vet bring back guns with documentation in the collection.

I remember when I found my first P-38 ac no date. At the time you could buy a minty P-38 for $75-100. I paid Bill Drollinger $650 for one that he had ... I had "sticker shock" ! But, it was a Great addition to the collection that I never regretted...

Tell me, is the P-38 in the photo your ac no date?

Are you a member of the National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association? If you are not, I really recommend them. They have tons of information on the WW II German weapons and a number of the more knowledgiable german arms collectors present material for the group.

Oh,... I am certainly not offended in any way by your photo. A lot of good guys paid a high price to collect those goodies and they deserve to display them....

Enjoy your weekend and thank you for sharing a most interesting Colt "warrior" with us.... Bob Best
 
#25 ·
Waffenwerks,

Very nice story about the gun and it's owners!

As for the nazi-symbol: Its better to let people know for what it stands for then not to show it at all.
My country had it's share in WWII. My uncles had to go into hiding, one for being a soldier in the Dutch Armed Forces, the other to escape deportation to Germany to avoid being put to labor for the Germanwareffort for the Arbeidseinsatz.

Sacrifices brought by U.S. and other Allied Troops and the resistance are making it possible for me here and now to speak my mind and breath the air a free man!
 
#26 ·
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reply. I was quite lucky to aquire this grouping and yes the P38 in the photo is AC no date serial number 8269 with matching magazine the holster is a DKK 1944 that came with the grouping. I collect about anything I find interesting but I am partial to the WWI and WWII guns and have several Lugers (Artillery, Navy, p08 ect) and about a dozen P38 and PPK pistols. I am working on a G43 / K43 collection but have only picked up two so far, one ZF scoped. I purchased a WWI grouping a couple of years ago that included a Mannlicher Berthier Carbine, 1917 S&W in great shape, a bunch of ammo for both with WWI era headstamps WWI cartridge belt and a few photos and postcards, all brought back by a WWI vet. These were sold to me by a lady in her 80's who was a private duty nurse that had taken care of the WWI vet years ago untill he passed and had left her everything as he had no family. Never knew pack horses wore gas masks in WWI, I"ve got the photo to prove it! I have enjoyed collecting since I was 13 years old and now at 48 I am still picking them up. It is surely an addiction but an enjoyable one. I belong to the NRA but thats about it. I own a business that keeps me busy six days a week. I hope our hobby is around forever but I fear it is in more jeopardy now than ever before. I am almost afraid to keep investing in a hobby that may pressed into demise.

Many Thanks!!
Happy Holidays!!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top