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Colt SAA 45LC 1st Gen MFG 1887 45 Long Colt WE NEED INFO?

5K views 43 replies 15 participants last post by  coltsixguns 
#1 · (Edited)
We have a question on this Colt SAA 1887 that we're selling on another site! The link is below

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/762770402

What is the 3 and a small s factory stamp on the cylinder? Any help would be great!!! Thank you
 

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#3 · (Edited)
My guess is assembly numbers. But I'd also guess there aint no case color to be seen. What I do "see" is some one took the gun apart and put a torch on the frame to get "case" colors. Trigger/bolt spring is broken or something else is screwed up internally.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Didn't realize it was a gun the OP was selling. As I said prior some interesting "case colors".

OP has 4 posts here. His definition on what "works" on a SAA and what we know works aint likely all the same.
Easy enough to see a few things aren't "right" on that gun.

I know the gun by serial number. Didn't look that way last time it was for sale on the Internet.
 
#9 ·
OK then. Good luck on the sale! Another Colt same vintage as yours with a serial # of 1234XX was floating around on Cabella's some time ago. Don't remember the last 2 digits specifically but it was a 4 3/4", 45 similar condition on the finish. Have to assume that one wasn't yours.
 
#11 ·
MRCVS, YOU need to get a piece of tail bud! If you're keeping track of Cabela's inventory and have a mental note of SN#'s form years ago you need a girlfriend or...... something. Respect is not tearing something apart that was NOT the question! I asked a simple question and got a simple response by Pointman.. Then the trolls got involved! I found out the gun is broke..IT IS NOT, been blow torched... IT HAS NOT.... and it's at Cabela's! Come up with cool story next time. mrcvs I have nothing to hide
 
#15 · (Edited)
MRCVS, YOU need to get a piece of tail bud! If you're keeping track of Cabela's inventory and have a mental note of SN#'s form years ago you need a girlfriend or...... something.
For some of us here, Colts are like old girlfriends; just because she was with you years ago, doesn't mean you have forgotten her pleasantries.

mrcvs, you should volunteer for a sex study. According to this fellow, your perusals of Cabela's Colt inventory act as an aphrodisiac--all that "tail" you seem to need. A correlation would certainly lead to Colt ramping up production and to sky-rocketing sales!

ps--If you have no time for a full-blown study, at least make time for yourself to entertain a full length "piece of tail"--not the suggested "tail bud." I've heard that tail buds can excite a fellow, but, . . .why not enjoy it all!
 
#12 · (Edited)
Hi There,

7.62mman said:
I found out the gun is broke..IT IS NOT,...
I think you are not appreciating the information the more
experienced are trying to relate and point out some problems
you may or may not be aware of.

The trigger does appear to have a problem. Your trigger looks
like this:

Gun Firearm Revolver Trigger Gun accessory


And a correct, undamaged trigger will look like this:

Metal


As you can see, your trigger is farther forward in the
trigger bow window. This is a symptom of a trigger
that has had the upper portion (sear) broken off. When
the trigger has the upper portion broken off, it allows
the trigger to pivot farther to engage the notches on
the hammer. Therefore, the trigger end up farther
forward in the trigger bow window.

This is usually the result of pulling the trigger when the
hammer is on one of the "safety" notches (first or second).
The top of the trigger is very thin at that point and being
fairly hard, it can snap clean. Sometimes, the captive part
of the hammer notch is broken too. Removal and inspection
will ascertain the extent of the damage.


Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
 
#16 ·
Pretty clear I won't be buying that gun. But wasn't trying to rain on 7.62's sale. Thought he was buying in the OP not selling. My bad. But I am a sucker for pictures so I stopped reading.

Obviously the seller isn't very well educated on the SAA. So he asked questions. Webb was gracious enough to attempt that explanation. Bet Webb could have given some thought as to the case colors as well.

I've certainly made mistakes before. I don't have a photographic memory but had once wanted to buy 1234XX in a .45, 4 3/4. and decided not to. My 2nd thought once I realized it was the seller asking for info was he was simply pimping his own auction....but I am an admittedly, a rather cynical fellow when I see a dealer selling 50+ guns from his own "collection".

May be not the most genteel language. I written worse. But then it was his gun and sell we were commenting on in a most unflattering manner. I get that. Might be wrong on the serial number but I'd stand behind my lock works and finish comments in person from the photos alone. Closer inspection might well prove me wrong.

If the OP is lucky he'll hit $3000. I did recognize a couple of the current bidders.

"
Up for auction and out of a private collection is a very nice Colt Single Action Army .45 long colt serial number #123493. Still has original case colored and finish is correct for how old the gun is! Black powder cartridges only. What you see is what you get. PLEASE VIEW ALL PICS BEFORE BIDDING."

It's the Internet.
Caveat Emptor
 
#19 ·
In fairness to the OP you guys know that lots of people are pretty thin skinned when someone rains on their parade. I've been around here long enough to see it happen several times. In truth, I led the bidding on this one for a while until my bid was broken yesterday. So if you guys thought some nut had bid too much it was me. :) I see what y'all see but I don't believe it's been "torched"....can't explain why the shadows of the case colors remain but to me it appears to be a pretty sharp old single action that has just browned out but the edges and corners are sharp and the grips are sharp. Broken trigger sear or safety notch is happening there but that is something that can be fixed pretty easily and if I get a mind to bid more I'll get it taken care of.
 
#39 ·
Sixguns I know you have a nice collection of 1 Gen guns just by what you have shown us all here in the past. I'm thinking you went $2500? Mind giving us an education if that was you on, what you liked on this gun. I respect your level of collecting and would love to here what you saw that I didn't

$2500 for me would have been a reasonable price on that gun just for the fact that it was a 45, 4 3/4 that hadn't been refinished. Finished scared me away past that.
 
#20 · (Edited)
To all,

I am still learning here and 'yes' I do know a-thing or two about metals but I did not initially catch the frame coloring. Trigger, yes but not the coloring, had to go back and look closer at the pictures on gunbroker, to 'see'. Thanks for pointing that out and stating the possible actions for its production. To me looking at and old firearm is just looking at the old firearm for what I can accept, not really scrutinizing the intimidate details. That happens after it gets home, sometimes an issue. Now, my questions for knowledge sake. Where the soft metal frames of the 1st gen revolvers heat-treated, in anyway? If yes, then the torching would definitely have some affects on the integrity of such frame, right? Would its affect be as bad as doing the same thing to a modern -- known heat-treated smokeless variant gun?

PS - I know the original case-coloring process was a form of heat-treatment unlike todays replica colors.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Hi There,

7.62mman said:
I see, Why does it work? Timing and locks perfect....Why?
I haven't been able to physically examine your revolver and
I don't know your level of expertise to make such a pronouncement.
But let's take a look at what makes up the "timing" of a SAA.
(Jim Martin is the recognized expert in this field and I hope
he corrects any mistakes I make in this post).

Timing of a SAA involves several parts; namely, the hammer,
the hand, the cylinder stop bolt (or just bolt for short) and
the trigger. I would say the hammer is the center around
which all other parts must work in unison. The hammer has
several sub-parts that all other parts must work with.

The Hammer has a cam which activates the bolt. There is a
hole in the side of the hammer that the hand fits into and is
cammed from. The hammer has notches that the trigger
engages.

Breaking the end of the trigger only affects the the relationship
between the hammer and the trigger. The hammer's relationship
with the bolt and the hand are not affected. Only the trigger will
drop into the notch a split second too early. What you have to do
is slowly cock the hammer and control its rearward movement and
note when the trigger snaps into the full cock notch and when the
cylinder is locked by the bolt at battery. Both should happen at the
same time. In a normal pull in cocking the revolver, this all happens
so quickly that you may not notice it.

So, ask yourself; when I cock the hammer and the cylinder and bolt
lock, does the hammer return ever so slightly to rest on the trigger?
If so, your trigger may be the culprit (judging from the previously
posted pics). It could be the hand and/or ratchet on the cylinder
being badly worn but SAA's are notorious for breaking triggers and
hammer notches when poorly handled.

There is a great deal more involving timing of the SAA and it
should be left to those who are well versed in this work to attempt
it (like Jim Martin).


Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
 
#22 ·
Hi There,

Yahoody said:
Bet Webb could have given some thought as to the case colors as well.
Well, seeing you asked...

The case colors do resemble the kind of tempering colors
seen when done with a torch. Also, it is very unusual to
see case colors on a SAA when the rest of the revolver has
as much wear to the rest of the finish. In my experience,
case colors fade long before the bluing wears significantly
(white edges and plum color blue will remain but colors
are gone on many an antique firearm). The finish on this
revolver hasn't gone plum but has mostly worn off (except
for a few protected areas). Also, the colors are on the most
exposed and prone to wear areas of the frame (like the flat
sides and topstrap). Also, the pattern of the colors is smooth
and rounded. Real quench created case colors are bizarre
in shape and pattern. So, I concur with those that forwarded
the position that these colors are suspect.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
 
#23 ·
It's nice looking SAA, but I sure don't believe that any of that "case colouring" is original. I agree with Yahoody that it's been helped with some heat, likely many years ago from the looks of it. You see the "case colouring" on the top strap, rounded portion of the back of the frame, and the sides of the frame, areas that are typically the first to lose colour, particularly the top strap. Other than that, and the broken trigger (relatively minor issue), it's a nice un-buffed example, one that I'd be happy own (just not at $3k+).

Best regards,
 
#24 ·
Monsai said:
It's nice looking SAA.....the broken trigger (relatively minor issue), it's a nice un-buffed example, one that I'd be happy own (just not at $3k+)
Agreed. Nice gun if it was selling for what I would consider a more reasonable price. Not a Colt Forum price mind you but "more reasonable" :) My biggest issue when I see a gun like that is; once I know some one has messed with it (torched colors) I gotta wonder what else has been messed with. I also wondered why there wasn't a caliber mark on the barrel...but had stopped looking for more details by then. Should the barrel be marked or not? Anyone know off hand? Last time I saw a unmolested #1234XX 4 3/4, 45 is was selling for $2400 at Texas Cabella's less than a year ago. It was a gun I should have bought. This is a nice gun we're discussing but the "case colors" warned me off.
 
#30 ·
More than once I have gotten discussed at what the forum has suggested is a "fair" price or value on a gun. Hoped I'd never low ball someone...although I don't mind a good deal. Here is a classic case were I certainly was "wrong". Someone though the gun was worth $3k+ as is. Although we won't likely know if this becomes an unpaid bidder. To them it obviously was worth $3K+. I can applaud that.
 
#32 ·
Interesting to look at pix no. 33 and 35 on the Gunbroker site. They show the affect of the bluish lighting used. If picture no. 35 was absent one would conclude that the front of the frame was blued by a torch. Without picture no. 33 the front of the frame in picture no 35 looks correct.
 
#33 ·
I would disagree just by the details of photo #35. i have seen a lot of guns...many of them with no finish and I have never seen a bare cylinder rod end like the photo shows. Or screws with no finish for that matter. That gun's finish has been so messed IMO hard to believe it actually sold for the amount it is supposed to have.

 
#34 ·
I would disagree just by the details of photo #35. i have seen a lot of guns...many of them with no finish and I have never seen a bare cylinder rod end like the photo shows. Or screws with no finish for that matter. That gun's finish has been so messed IMO hard to believe it actually sold for the amount it is supposed to have.
Yahoody,

If I could give you three thumbs up, I would!

Sometimes when looking at a firearm, and others see what you don't, you think to yourself "what am I missing?" One post stated that a few knowledgeable members of this forum bid on this gun...and at much higher than its true value. Amazing...and you think you must be missing something other than the physical impossibility of having case colouring on a gun with otherwise no finish, contrary to normal wear patterns, and having justifcation for this case colouring, even though it reflects more the work of a torch than actual original case colouring, even well worn. There is significant pitting on the cylinder, virtually no original finish on all parts, including base pin. I could justify bidding on this one, if someone wanted it at a bargain price, maybe $1200-$1400. But most collector's strive for originality, and some condition, at the very least. The condition is low, but that's okay, at the right price...and it does have nice eagle grips. Once monkeyed with, it becomes no longer attractive.

By the way, can a chemist, metallurgist, or engineer comment on the effect, if any, on a wrought iron/black powder frame when heated to the point it changes colour?

Incidentally, I avoid Gunbroker in general. It seems folks toss around wads of cash readily and make decisions that defy logic.
 
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