[speedracer]

I bought a 1847 walker with the colt markings on the top of the barrel.some buffing had been done on gun to probably remove Italian markings.A gun collector told me that in the 1970's colt was buying parts made in Italy and assembling them here.does anybody know anything about this.thanks

 

[DPris]

The "modern" Colt-marked percussions were built using Uberti parts, initially by Colt & later elsewhere.
The Peacemaker DID NOT USE ITALIAN PARTS.
Denis

 

[Oyeboten]

Images?

 

[dfariswheel]

Colt purchased the Second Generation and later Signature Series black powder parts from Uberti of Italy.
These were unmarked, raw, unfinished parts, so they had no Italian proofs or other stamps.

Colt did not actually assemble the guns. The Second Generation series were built FOR Colt in the Iver Johnson factory.
The later Signature Series were built by the same people who owned Iver Johnson and these were built in New York City.

Since there were no Italian stamps on the parts to start with, there would be no buffing done to remove anything.

 

[speedracer]

I just talked to colt and they said they never used any parts from Italy.Their reproduction was in 1979 with starting serial numbers at 1200.they could not explain how their stamp would be on top of the barrel unless somebody changed the barrel from one of their rep.I doubt that,all the serial # match.They said they could not check all reproductions.This collector I know said that colt would never admit at the time that any parts were made in italy

 

[Oyeboten]

There were other manufacturers in the 1960s and maybe 1970s ( I forget now ) who were not Colt, but, who put the 'Colt' Address on the top rear of the Barrel, and had no other clues stamped in anywhere.

These were not ( or not necessarily ) Uberti, and in some cases it is hard to figure out who made them ( other than that were well done re-productions, and not 'Originals' ).

In some instances Colt sued ( or so I recall the stories to go anyway ) to have some of these Manufacturers stop putting the Colt name and Address on the Barrel tops.

Images might aid in determining whether this is an Uberti, or a Colt 2nd Generation or someone else's offering...or a combination of parts from any or all of the above.

 

[DPris]

D,
It's my understanding the first "seconds" were done by Colt in the old factory. Later editions were not. Wrong?

Speed,
The Second Gen & later Signature Series had Colt markings & WERE built using Uberti parts.
Those not done by Colt were under a licensing arrangement.
Denis

 

[dfariswheel]

D,
It's my understanding the first "seconds" were done by Colt in the old factory. Later editions were not. Wrong?

Speed,
The Second Gen & later Signature Series had Colt markings & WERE built using Uberti parts.
Those not done by Colt were under a licensing arrangement.
Denis

I've always read that Colt had Iver Johnson build all of the Second Gen black powder guns.
I DON'T know where the early stainless steel 1860 Colt Army's were built. Most people have never even heard of them.

 

[browntowel]

I have an Armi San Marco made Walker with Colt markings. On bottom of the barrel, hidden by the loading lever, it says something like "ASM. made in Italy. For blackpowder only." Then it has the proof marks by the trigger guard. I wish I had it here to say for sure what it says. How does the color case hardening look on your pistol? Mine looks cheaply done and not as nice as the case hardening on my 2nd gen 1860 or my New Frontier.

 

[DPris]

D,
I've understood for many years that Colt did the first ones in-house with Uberti parts, and the rest were a licensed deal with the Imperatos.
I'll ask Anthony.
Denis

 

[steg]

Whoever it was at Colt that said they did not use Italian parts to make the C series percussion guns at their factory does not know what they are talking about. The major parts for these '51 Navies and 3rd model Dragoons were supplied by Navy Arms, who imported Uberti parts in the rough, machined them to spec and then sold them in the white to Colt. Colt then case hardened and blued the parts and assembled the guns using American made screws and internal parts.
Colt found that this was too expensive to be profitable, so, in 1976, Colt subcontracted the complete manufacture of their percussion pistols to Lou Imperato and his Ivor Johnson Company. The line was expanded to include all models except the M1849 Pocket. Ivor Johnson then imported unfinished Uberti parts in the rough, completely finished them and assembled the guns under the supervision of a Colt Factory Quality Control team that answered only to Hartford. Upon completion, these guns were then shipped to the Hartford factory where they were inspected once again and then sold to wholesalers around the U.S. This latter arrangement lasted until 1981, when the "bean counters" got control of Colt and canceled the line without warning, stating that Colt had no business making obsolete firearms.
This left Lou Imperato with several millions of dollars worth of parts and a large number of finished pistols- which he was not allowed to sell because Colt said their existence violated their trademarks. Of course Imperato sued and ended up settling out of court for the right to manufacture Colt Percussion pistols under license and to use the Colt trademarks. These pistols became known as the 3rd generation of Colt Percussion Revolvers.
If you have any doubt about this, I strongly suggest you get a copy of Dennis Russell's book about the 2nd and 3rd generation Colt Percussions. It is the final word about these guns.
As for the purists who claim that these 2nd and 3rd generation guns are not real Colts because they weren't made in the Hartford Factory, they do not know the history of Colt. If these guns are not real Colts, then neither are the Paterson Colts nor the Walkers!

 

[speedracer]

Thanks to everybody for all the information.

 

[Rio]

I have a book detailing the history of the Iver Johnson company up until they closed and there is no mention of any work done for Colt.

Rio

 

[steg]

I have a book detailing the history of the Iver Johnson company up until they closed and there is no mention of any work done for Colt.

Rio

What you say is not unusual. Almost every firearms company has done contract work for other makes of guns. I have read the histories of several firearms companies, and none of them makes mention of doing contract work for other companies, even though it is known by firearms historians to have been done.
The work Ivor Johnson did for Colt is well documented in other sources and it was done after the Ivor Johnson factory was re-located to Middlesex County, N.J.

 

[Rio]

Seems like you are saying that the guy who wrote the Iver Johnson history did not have access to the full company records but that Dennis Russell did?

Rio

 

[steg]

Seems like you are saying that the guy who wrote the Iver Johnson history did not have access to the full company records but that Dennis Russell did?

Rio

Exactly!!!! Dennis got much of his info directly from original sources.

 

[johngross]

I think it's fair to say that Colt was not advertising the fact that IJ was making guns for them. I wouldn't even be surprised if there was some type of confidentiality agreement between both parties. So, when research was being done for the IJ book, the author(s) may not have been given any such information (at least not "officially").

Also, while the Colt/IJ connection was rumored for several years, I think the first creditable publication of the relationship was not until the mid to late 1990s. Depending upon when information was being gathered for the IJ book, the author(s) may not have had reliable information and chose not to publish rumor.

And finally, every author has to have a cut-off line, which means making a decision of what to include and what to exclude. So it may have been as simple as him/them deciding not to include the Colt C&B revolvers.

John Gross

 

[Rio]

Guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Rio

 

[steg]

Rio: If you want a definitive answer about the IJ factory making the 2nd gen. percussion Colts for Colt Hartford, why not write a letter to the author of your book addressed to the publisher. I am sure they will forward it to him and he will answer it for you. If that is not practical, you might contact Anthony Imperato at Henry Repeating Arms Co. In Bayonne, N.J. He along with his Father Lou, owned and operated IJ during the period in question. They also owned and ran Colt Blackpowder Arms Co. in Brooklyn, N.Y.
When you get your answer, please share it with us.

 

[Rio]

I'm on holiday at the moment but when I get back home I'll surely make some enquiries. Doesn't this Henry Repeating Arms Co. claim to be in some way associated with the original Henry rifles? Something else that doesn't sit well with me.

Rio