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My dealer recently offered on Gunsamerica an unfired Colt 1909 Army in .45 LC. It was sold with a box that was unmarked. He asked me to ask you closet Colt collectors on the S&W Forum your opinions regarding the originality of this box to the revolver. Me, I don't know anything more, but I can refer any questions to him.
Thanks,
John




[This message has been edited by ejohne (edited 07-09-2004).]
 

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EJ: I don't know the answer to your friend's question about the box, but if I had to guess I would say the box is not correct for a M1909. I believe that most the M1909s went directly to the Philippines to the Manila Ordnance Depot. At the time I believe that the guns would have been shipped in wooden crates, rather than in cardboard cartons. Additionally, the carton pictured looks to me to have come from the 1930-40s time frame. The metal fasteners on the box edges suggest that to me (identical to the later Smith 2 piece boxes). None of this is anything you can take to the bank, but since no one else weighed in I thought I would offer my 2 cents. I hope this helps you.
Charlie


 
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It's an interesting box...but unlike anything I've ever seen associated with Colt, for what that's worth.
 

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I've seen boxs like that before with that type of end but none ever had a lable or were marked as to what should be in them. Seen both Colts and S&W's in them but not sure if either were correct.
IP

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kwill1911:
It's an interesting box...but unlike anything I've ever seen associated with Colt, for what that's worth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 

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The New Service Model 1909 was NOT chambered for the 45 Colt. It was chambered for the 1909 Colt 45. This cartridge has a case about 0.010 inch longer than the 45 Colt. It has a wider rim like the original Schoefield or S&W 45. You cannot put six of these in a SAA as the rim is two wide. It was loaded with a 300 grain bullet at 700 some odd fps. I have a box of these in my collection.

It was intended that the 1909 take the 45 Colt as a secondary cartridge. It does so at the risk of getting a rim under the extractor and will shoot low due to the lighter bullet.

Given the number of US militaria collectors out there it never fails to astound me that at least two first line handgun cartridges have fallen into total obscurity.

A bit of history:

First the 45 Colt.

next the 45 Smith & Wesson or 45 Schoefield. Besides being shorter for the S&W it had a wider rim for the star extractor. problem was the wide rim allowed only three at a time in the SAA.

The 45 Government, one of the "lost" cartridges. This became the first line US Army issue. It had the case length of the 45 S&W but the rim of the 45 Colt and thus would chamber in either at the risk of getting under the extractor on the Schoefield. This cartrdige was nicknamed the 45 Short Colt and probably is the reason the 45 Colt was nicknamed the 45 Long Colt.

The 38 Colt. Didn't stop the Moros. What you don't hear is that none of the 45's or the 30-40 krag did either.

The army decided to go back to a 45, but were thinking in terms of a self loader. The 1909 was conceived as an interim stop gap along with the 1909 cartridge.

The 45 ACP. Originally intended to have the same weight bullet and velocity as the 45 Government or 45 Short Colt revolver cartrdige.

Today's Schoefield: If you go to the gun show and buy brass head stamped 45 Schoefield it will have the dimensions of the 45 Government or 45 Short Colt not the dimensions of the original 45 Schoefield, in particular it will have the narrow rim.

I don't know beans about the revolver box above.
 
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