Colt Forum banner

61 - 80 of 82 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,704 Posts
Friend sent pictures of several 1911A1 pistols in a military museum in Brazil. All the pistols were worn, but were in original finish. Among them was a March 1945 Remington Rand with a D44 marked slide.
Can you post the pictures here?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,309 Posts
Friend sent pictures of several 1911A1 pistols in a military museum in Brazil. All the pistols were worn, but were in original finish. Among them was a March 1945 Remington Rand with a D44 marked slide.
That's interesting. I got images today of a Colt with one of the D markings on the slide. The gun is on the way to me, but the images aren't mine, so I won't/can't share at this time. It's surprising how many of these things continue to show up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #63 ·
Friend sent pictures of several 1911A1 pistols in a military museum in Brazil. All the pistols were worn, but were in original finish. Among them was a March 1945 Remington Rand with a D44 marked slide.
Please show us the pictures... this question is really tricky. Simple First Step: When was D44 (or D?4) put on those pistols. Before the first parkerizing - that means during production. Or on top of the finish at any time later....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,251 Posts
That is an easy question to answer. The pistols did not leave the manufacturer with the marking. I believe there is a Springfield Armory slide shown in the above posts that has the marking. That would cover a time period of over 30 years and all manufacturers.

Will be glad to post photo is sender doesn't mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #66 · (Edited)
To make it more tricky... Colt No. 1251335 marked D44 was offered at an auction in Germany (Hermann Historica 53. Auction). They described the pistol as coming from an early "Bundeswehr" (German Army after 1955) Hospital.
Argentine bought complete US navy ships with their handguns. Clawson, Colt .45 Government models, 2nd Edition mentions it on page 143. I have Colt No. 2264095 marked ARA and the Argentine Crest on top of the slide that probably came with an U.S. ship - I do not know which. But without D?4 marking...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,309 Posts
...Argentine bought complete US navy ships with their handguns. Clawson, Colt .45 Government models, 2nd Edition mentions it on page 143. I have Colt No. 2264095 marked ARA and the Argentine Crest on top of the slide that probably came with an U.S. ship - I do not know which. But without D?4 marking...
Here is the one from the Clawson collection. Not many ever managed to make it back into the USA. This one is still all original finish and parts.



 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,054 Posts
Argentine bought complete US navy ships with their handguns. Clawson, Colt .45 Government models, 2nd Edition mentions it on page 143. I have Colt No. 2264095 marked ARA and the Argentine Crest on top of the slide that probably came with an U.S. ship - I do not know which. But without D?4 marking...
Schuren,

Yes,...that info on page 143 (Clawson) references Fig. 7-22 on page 151. It is a 1937 Navy that was transferred to the Argentine Navy. Apparently, Clawson identified 21 Navy Pistols in a document titled: "From the files of Charles W. Clawson". (That document is not dated or signed.)

That document titled: "From the files of Charles W. Clawson", lists the 2 Light Cruisers, the 10 Destroyers, and the 4 Submarines transferred to the Argentine Navy between 1951 and 1974. It then lists the 21 Pistols under: "The following are the only known U.S. Navy pistols returned through importers in 1996. Most were refinished in Argentina:" The 1937 on page 151, the Pistol in post # 67, and a 2264XXX Pistol are 3 of the 21 Pistols listed.

Best Regards,

P.S. For the Forum,...Please Note This POST has nothing to do with the "D X4" stamped Slides.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #70 · (Edited)
Schuren,

Yes,...that info on page 143 (Clawson) references Fig. 7-22 on page 151. It is a 1937 Navy that was transferred to the Argentine Navy. Apparently, Clawson identified 21 Navy Pistols in a document titled: "From the files of Charles W. Clawson". (That document is not dated or signed.)

That document titled: "From the files of Charles W. Clawson", lists the 2 Light Cruisers, the 10 Destroyers, and the 4 Submarines transferred to the Argentine Navy between 1951 and 1974. It then lists the 21 Pistols under: "The following are the only known U.S. Navy pistols returned through importers in 1996. Most were refinished in Argentina:" The 1937 on page 151, the Pistol in post # 67, and a 2264XXX Pistol are 3 of the 21 Pistols listed.

Best Regards,

P.S. For the Forum,...Please Note This POST has nothing to do with the "D X4" stamped Slides.
I know it is not correct and has also nothing to do with D44 (but as we have no new ideas about D44 i may be excused...) here are a few pictures of my ARA Colt No. 2264095. It seems that the pistol was not refinished as ARA was stamped on top of the original finish - but got German proof marks (1994) when it was imported.

imported.
720221
720222
720223
720224
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,704 Posts
A "new" one:

And a new theory: The US gave Brazil quite a few destroyers in WWII as part of the Lend-Lease program. Brazil also got 701 M1911/M1911A1 pistols as part of the program. US Navy destroyers carry a "DE" designation but in Brazil they were renumbered with just a "D" prefix. The numbers (always ending in 4) still don't make sense however.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #72 · (Edited)
A "new" one:

And a new theory: The US gave Brazil quite a few destroyers in WWII as part of the Lend-Lease program. Brazil also got 701 M1911/M1911A1 pistols as part of the program. US Navy destroyers carry a "DE" designation but in Brazil they were renumbered with just a "D" prefix. The numbers (always ending in 4) still don't make sense however.
Kwill, thank you for giving it a thought and putting another one on show!!!. Compared with the other theories it seems a bit more possible. My problem is: "My" D 44 was probably put on the pistol before it got the phosphate finish...and the rest of the gun (numbers on top of the finish) look original. But I am not sure if this is really so. The British and the Germans are famous for marking their handguns a lot...but Brazilians???....

.
736148
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
688 Posts

Here is one with slide marked D44 coming up for auction. It has a story associated with it, but it doesn't shed any light on what the D44 would designate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #74 ·

Here is one with slide marked D44 coming up for auction. It has a story associated with it, but it doesn't shed any light on what the D44 would designate.
Good Morning, and thank you very much!!!
I think it could be important: If this is for real and the pistol belonged to Lt. Shapiro the theorie that those markings were applied when the pistols were used on some warship after WWII is invalid. We are back to the time of WWII and someone in the Army applying those markings. I do not hink it was done at Colt as pistols from other manufacturers are marked in the same way.
Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
688 Posts
While I agree "if" it was issued to Lt. Shapiro it would cause the rethinking of the Battleship theory. However, without documentation I am always skeptical about supposed attribution that a pistol was issued to an individual during the war. This 1911a1 could have been added to this collection post war.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,228 Posts
Lt. Shapiro died in 1968. How do we know when the Colt .45 was acquired by him ? Goering's Walther is documented in the package that is up for auction, is there anything on the Colt pistol ?
How do we know that Lt. Shapiro didn't buy the pistol sometime after the war ? Just playing devil's advocate here, as absent more data or documentation from Lt. Shapiro's family we don't know if that was really his WWII issued pistol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #77 ·
Lt. Shapiro died in 1968. How do we know when the Colt .45 was acquired by him ? Goering's Walther is documented in the package that is up for auction, is there anything on the Colt pistol ?
How do we know that Lt. Shapiro didn't buy the pistol sometime after the war ? Just playing devil's advocate here, as absent more data or documentation from Lt. Shapiro's family we don't know if that was really his WWII issued pistol.
As I said "If this is for real...".. One thing I do not know: In the old days (before 1914) an officer bought his own sidearm and kept it, when he left the military. But I do not think this was the case in WW II and later on in the U.S of A. But I could be wrong... Some members should know: Could a comissioned officer (I do not talk about the higher ranks...) keep his pistol when he left the service?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,704 Posts
No, not in the U.S. Except for the very early issued pistols, even General Officers were required to pay for their pistols if they wanted to keep them when they retired. Lower ranks were not permitted to keep them even if they were willing to pay for them. It happened on occasion but it wasn't supposed to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Discussion Starter · #79 ·
No, not in the U.S. Except for the very early issued pistols, even General Officers were required to pay for their pistols if they wanted to keep them when they retired. Lower ranks were not permitted to keep them even if they were willing to pay for them. It happened on occasion but it wasn't supposed to.
Thank you kwill, that brings us back to where we have been before.
I have a nice 1915 Luger and lot of papers about a bavarian NCO from WWI... the only problem is ... the connection bewtween the two is just what the seller told me...
The Argentinian navy and their destroyers from the U.S Navy seems until now the best idea...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,228 Posts
We know that Sam Cummings, founder of Interarms scoured the world during the 1950's buying up obsolete weapons, often for a song from nations that wanted more modern weapons or were cash strapped during the hard economic times in many small countries. He bought thousands of M1891 and M1909 Mausers from Argentina along with Sistema Colts, so buying armament from their naval vessels was certainly probable. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending upon how you feel about import markings, those surplus guns were not marked in any way back in those days with some rare exceptions. Said guns then ended up for sale on the pages of many gun magazines from the big mail order houses for what now seem to be fantastic prices and also were available through retailers.
Lt. Shapiro could very well have bought one back in the early 1960's for $24.95 and a holster and belt for a few bucks more.
 
61 - 80 of 82 Posts
Top