Does anyone out there know what model revolver the Justice Department (FBI) armed themselves with when they were finally allowed to carry firearms, and what other models folled including automatics???????
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri: Does anyone out there know what model revolver the Justice Department (FBI) armed themselves with when they were finally allowed to carry firearms, and what other models folled including automatics???????
I might be mistaken, but I think that, at first, they were issued Smith & Wesson M&P and Colt Official Police .38 spl 4" revolvers. The S&W .357 magnum (later to be known as the model 27) was a favourite of the agents since its introduction, particularly in 3" barrel configuration, although I don't know if it was standard issue or if rather the agents themselves bought it with their own funds. It seems that by the late 70's and early 80's the Bureau adopted as standard issue the 3" barrel .357 magnum S&W model 13, usually loaded with Remington 158 Gr LHP .38 spl +P ammo (2 to 4" barreled .38 and .357 personals revolvers were authorized with supervisor's permission). SWAT members in this era carried S&W model 459 loaded with Winchester Silvertips (115 Gr. JHP +P), until the "Miami shootout". This episode decided the Bureau to arm themselves with somewhat more powerful and the S&W 1076 10 mm was adopted. Problems with this gun followed, and 9 mm Sig-Sauer p226 and p228 were issued for a time. I think that nowadays the standard issue handguns are the Glock 22 and 23 in .40 S&W caliber. If I am not wrong, personal autos and back-up revolvers are allowed. SWAT an HRT officers carry a 1911-type auto (I think it is made by Springfield armory, although according to some sources it is a Para-Ordnance)
Well, that is all the info I can offer. Can someone confirm that it is accurate?
[This message has been edited by Diego (edited 09-26-2004).]
In the July 1945 issue of The American Rifleman is an article authored by none other than J. Edgar Hoover entitled "The Shooting FBI." FBI agents were not empowered by Congress to carry firearms and make arrests until June 18, 1934. The FBI adopted as its official handgun a .38 caliber revolver. They also adopted the M1 Carbine (the .30-'06 "was too powerful"), the Thompson SMG, a "12 gauge, cylinder-bore, repeating shotgun," and the .357 Magnum revolver for special circumstances. No automatic pistols were issued or authorized. However, there is a picture in the article of an agent firing a pistol and the caption reads in part: "Agents are issued .38 Special revolvers; may carry sidearms of their own choosing; use .357 Magnum for special duties."
Hoover waxes eloquent about how much training they provided but all with revolvers or the "special purpose" weapons mentioned above. He also relates an anecdote about a bad guy that gets killed instantly by an agent because the bad guy fumbled with the slide of a ".45 caliber Colt."
No agent could legally carry anything before mid-1934. Perhaps they could choose their own sidearm after that but a) they received no training on autos, b) they weren't highly paid and c) they were issued a .38 revolver and holster.
Interestingly, Sheldon reports in his book on the Super .38 that 342 Super .38's were sold to the U.S. Govt between 1933 and 1936. The FBI got 25 of them in April 1935, as did the "Division of Investigation".
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri: Very good information!! How about other government agencies, ATF, Secret Service, Post office, etc?????????? Thanks again..
To the best of my knowledge, these are the guns now issued by federal agencies:
1-ATF: Sig-sauer 9 mm pistols (p225, 226, 228, 239 allowed, at the officer's choice). S&W 640 .357 mg revolver allowed for back-up use.
2-US Secret Service: Sig-sauer p229 (.357 sig) (ammo: Winchester 125 gr. Ranger "T" series. This gun replaces the previously used Sig p228 9 mm, which replaced the S&W .357 magnum model 19 with 21/2" barrel used previously (loaded with 110 gr. .38 spl +P ammo). I think the Sig p230, .380 auto is authorized for off-duty use.
3- Internal Revenue Service-CID: sig-Sauer p228 9 mm
4- US Marshall service: Glock 22 (.40 S&W). Special operations group: they used the Sig p229, but are replacing it by Springfield TRP operator (.45 ACP, I think).
5- US customs service: Glock 17 and 19, which replaced S&W 6946 DAO 9 mm (that replaced S&W 686 .357 magnum used previously).Personal handguns are authorized, including .38 spl-.357 magnum revolvers and double action pistols of 9 mm caliber or larger, made by S&W, Colt, Browning, Glock, SIG, Ruger, Walther and H&K
6- US Border patrol (INS): Beretta 96 D brigadier and H&K USP 40 compact (plaincothes agents). This service used previously: S&W 686 and Ruger GP-100 .357 mg. revolvers; S&W 19-66 and Ruger Security six-service six (1974-1982); Colt Trooper .357 mg (1958-1974); S&W model 10 and Outdoorsman, in .38 spl (1951-1958); Colt New Service Revolver (1939-1951).
7-DEA: Glock 22 and 23 (.40 S&W). They replaced in 1998 the guns issued previously: Sig-sauer p228, Beretta 92 FS and S&W 5904 (at the officer's choice). I don't know if personal handguns are now authorized. Until 1998 handguns authorized included: Any Glock, Beretta, 2nd or 3rd generation S&W, and Sig-Sauer pistol in 9 mm or .45 ACP, and .38 spl-.357 magnum revolvers (5-shot, 2" barrel revolvers only authorized for back-up/off-duty use).
8- US Air Marshalls (Federal Aviation Administration): SIg-Sauer p228 (replaced the previously issued sig-sauer p225)
9-US postal inspectors: Beretta 92 FS 9 mm (previously: S&W 686 .357 magnum)
10- US national park service police: H&K p7 M13 or P7 M8) (9 mm)
I think the US department of homeland security have bought Sig-Sauer p-239 (DAO) and Sig-sauer p226 DAK and p 229 DAK, but I'm not sure.
[This message has been edited by Diego (edited 09-27-2004).]
[This message has been edited by Diego (edited 09-27-2004).]
Great post Diego! The Border Patrol used "surplus" 1917s,nearly all Colts, until they got the 4" New Services in .38 Special,in the mid thirties-and the RAREST of all Post War Colts,IMO,the original "Border Patrol"(not that ersatz MkIII),400 of which were built on Official Police frames in .38 Special,but with a 4" Bull Barrel. Issued in 1952,with the "Coltwood stocks". Weight 35 to 36 oz.Blue Finish. Dont care what some books say, ain't NO way that the gun was built on the Police Positive Special Frame! That gun weighes 23 oz. with a 4" tube! Unless the Bull barrel was made of lead.no way to pick up nearly a pound,but a regular 4" O.P weighs about 31-32 oz.,so the bull bbl. adds 4 oz. Ive seen a couple while in the Air Force in the mid 60s and they sure were O.Ps to me. Very few of the Border Patrol New Services and "Border Patrols" were surplused off to the general public in the 60s,but from what I've read used for training props to teach "disarming suspects".It was in the 60's that our Govt. began NOT trusting its civilians to buy surplus weapons & pick up a few dollars to help save the taxpayers a few bucks! Bud
Very interesting info, lonewolf. Thanks. Our government usually sells the police surplus handguns, but they sell them in America, because so few of us spaniards can legally own handguns :-(
(and I'm afraid things will get worse with our new, socialist government)
I don't believe I saw anyone mention the Kimber 45's...those are also in use...also S&w 696 revolver has been standard issue for years in ALL law inforcement..just not many officers carry them cause they only hold 5 shots the Springfield XD made the list just this year aswell
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yoda: I don't believe I saw anyone mention the Kimber 45's...those are also in use...also S&w 696 revolver has been standard issue for years in ALL law inforcement..just not many officers carry them cause they only hold 5 shots the Springfield XD made the list just this year aswell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does any federal LE agency issue Kimbers? I think the LAPD SWAT Team and some local PD's use them, but I don't know of any federal agency that allows its officers to carry this gun. Am I wrong? Also, I think no federal or state police department has adopted the 696, 44 spl revolver as standard issue, and I doubt if any local PD has issued it. The 696, nice gun as it is, has not been too successful, in this era of high-capacity autos, and therefore S&W stopped its production. Some officers might be carrying it in small departments, sure, but saying that it has been "standard issue for years in all LE" seems a bit exagerated. May be you're talking about the .357 magnum 686? (I don't think so, as you mention a "5 shot" revolver)
No the 696 Smith has been in use for years and has been a issue revolver....as I stated before...not many carry it because of the 5 shot cylinder...the reason I know this is because of the local sheriff's department and state patrol...several of the detectives carry one here in my town...I also know this cause of the research I did on this pistol when I first bought it and that is what I found in my research...now the 586 and 686 have been carried in every state...I also just wanted to state as far as FBI goes with the 696 it is a issue pistol but now many carry one...also know of 2 US Marshalls that carry a 696!
Oh and Kimber has been on the list for a Couple years now...not only by LAPD s.w.a.t by FBI...Us Marshall's...local and state police!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also just wanted to state as far as FBI goes with the 696 it is a issue pistol but now many carry one...also know of 2 US Marshalls that carry a 696!
Oh and Kimber has been on the list for a Couple years now...not only by LAPD s.w.a.t by FBI...Us Marshall's...local and state police![/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting...I didn't know that any federal LE agency authorized the .44 spl. Also, I know the Kimbers 1911-style pistols are great guns, and I bet that most PDs that approve this type of gun will authorize that brand, but I thought that, because of liability reasons, single-action autos were not allowed in most large departments in the USA, save for SWAT units.
My uncle , whom I work for , purchased a Colt 38 Super back about 15 yrs ago from an agent that carried this particular pistol from the mid 1930's until retirement . It has no Bureau markings as it was an agent purchase .
Thought I'd resurrect this old thread, since it is one of the few areas in which I might be able to add to the general knowledge base.
The Smith and Wesson 696 has never been an issue FBI gun, nor was it ever approved for Bureau use. The personally owned/approved list is very short now, and includes NO revolvers. Even when it did, the only approved wheelguns (at least since 1991) were Smith .38/.357s, four inch or shorter barrels, blue or stainless (no nickle), with steel frames (no airweights). Colts were nowhere to be found, though a few of the older agents carried Troopers and Pythons that were grandfathered in.
The only approved calibers for handguns in recent history have been .38, .357, 9mm, 10mm, .40, and .45. If somebody tries to sell you a real live FBI gun in some other caliber (like .44 Special) they're blowing smoke. If you're buying it from the actual agent (as in a personally owner/Bureau approved gun) he (or she) should be able to at least show you an FD-431 form with the serial number of the gun on it. My ex-guns will go to my kids, and each has a copy of the 431 with it as provenance.
Current issue is the Glock 22. SWAT guys get tricked out Springfield Armory 1911s, and can buy them direct from Springfield if they want to spend $1,800.
There are actually a ton of Colts in current Bureau service, but they are soul-less M4s and M16s. There used to be some beautiful Garands in each gun vault, but they were all sent back to get the chop. I tried to save them by diversion to CMP, but I was too late. If I told you what happened to the Thompsons, you'd cry.
There are still some oddities out there. I know of one office that has a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .30/06 with an old Redfield scope in the corner, hoping the Bureau won't wake up and call it in.