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Custer photos with his dogs & pet pelican [he caught on the Arkansas River just south of the fort] & with the Osage Scouts. Taken by William S Soule in 1868 while the 7th Cavalry was encamped beside Ft. Dodge, on its way back to Fort Hays with the women & children prisoners for the Washita Battle. All the Indian scouts were fired upon arrival at the fort, Ben Clark, scout for Custer said the Osage 88363975_2955793667980222_1708511812523130880_n.jpg 87953123_2955747307984858_7614430227816513536_o.jpg were responsible for much of the killing of the women & children at Washita.
 

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We hear so much about the peaceful and loving Indians of that time, but never about the evil things they did. we don't hear to much about the Military, orders, and the law at that time. the Indians would not submit to life on the reservation, that was the law, it did not matter if anyone liked it or not. Custer was a Military officer following orders. a true American hero.
It's a long story, and most don't want to hear it.
 

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Years ago I found a very old book in a used book store about so called documented cases of Indian atrocities. It went way back to well over a couple hundred years of old accounts. Gory beyond belief. I dont recall getting rid of the book, might be in my storage shed. After reading it I could easier understand the old hatred views the military and public had back then. I think it`s unfair to judge what people did long ago by our present day standards. You need not go that far back, you can look at the horrors of the 1930`s and world war two with Nazi Germany and Japan. Hard to believe the difference between them now and their grandfathers. My grandparents were German immigrants from the Ukraine.
 

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Not that the native population didn’t commit atrocities, but if some invaders were trying to take over my home and force me into what amounted to captivity, pretty sure I wouldn’t be submissive either.
It was the atrocities the Indians did commit that broke the law that got them moved to the reservation's, the Indians were not exempt from the law, it was not invaders trying to take over their homes, it was the U.S. Army who was sent to enforce the law.
Yep...times were diff. back then.
 

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Curiously I´m starting to read a book by Thomas B. Marquis titled " Keep the Last Bullet for Yourself " in which he relates the testimony of several indians and scouts who were still alive in the 20´s when he worked as a physician in the Cheyenne reservation.
Regards, Raimundo
 

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The country has become highly politically correct. Now we are branded as devils if we say many things that were acceptable when I was a kid seventy years ago. PC has become more sacred to the general public than the bible it`s self. I lived with several full blooded Indian room mates years back. I worked with them. Both were great friends----when sober. Both got in big trouble later when drinking. One was with a brother on a drunk. They ran out of money, met their third brother and hit him up for money. When he refused they beat him to death! Another friend got drunk and killed some people in a car wreck. My mother sent me the newspaper clipping, I think four people died in that wreck. It`s a long sad dramatic story but
he worked for me and I took him with me to another state to keep him from killing his unfaithful wife. He got to brooding about it, quit me and went back vowing to kill her. I dropped a dime on him. Both guys were as good a friend as you could want---sober, but neither could handle one drink.
 

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Years ago I found a very old book in a used book store about so called documented cases of Indian atrocities. It went way back to well over a couple hundred years of old accounts. Gory beyond belief. I dont recall getting rid of the book, might be in my storage shed.
Please try to remember the name of that book. I have turned blue in the face trying to explain to the millennial's how the Indians were not "peaceful all caring all loving people who existed in utopia before whitey came around" and how they "wasted nothing and lived in harmony with nature", whatever that means.
 

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I am laid up recovering from a hip replacement that I fell and cracked again. I will hopefully be able to wade through my stuff in the shed in a week or two and repost if I can find it. The book was faded, old and smelly thirty years ago when I found it.
I am laid up recovering from a hip replacement that I fell and cracked again. I will hopefully be able to wade through my stuff in the shed in a week or two and repost if I can find it. The book was faded, old and smelly thirty years ago when I found it.
I just seen the above post when I posted that. I am fairly sure that may be the book I am looking for. Thanks AZshot!
 

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Books? Any number of books about Indians abducting white women and children that get very detailed about the atrocities on both sides. Stuff that will curl the hair of most. Some I simply stopped reading because it was so gruesome.

Or this:

"Empire Of The Summer Moon" The Comanche story. Likely one of the best on Indian history in the SW, Texas and the Plains.

"The Wild Frontier : Atrocities During the American-Indian War from Jamestown Colony to Wounded Knee"

Merril is right on about this, "After reading it I could easier understand the old hatred views the military and public had back then. I think it`s unfair to judge what people did long ago by our present day standards."

But you'd have to deaf dumb and blind not to see what the white man did to the Indian since day one out of the boat. The Indian tribes through out the Americans had always practices "total war" against any enemy. Kill them, their grand parents, their children, their women and their dogs. Do it all in a way that anyone that saw the after math knew you weren't to be fooked with.

Locally we had a couple of massacres.

Ward Massacre (1854) –August 20, 1854, A war party of Shoshone and Snake Indians came upon the group of 20 emigrants. When one of the Indians tried to take a horse by force, one of the travelers shot the warrior down. The Indians immediately retaliated in an extremely brutal manner, killing all except two of the Ward children. In all the Shoshone killed 19, torturing most of them to death including burning three children alive.

It was other immigrants that found and buried the bodies and took in the 2 survivors. Doesn't take much imagination to understand the hate generated there.

so lets get some payback....

Bear River Massacre [1963] At daybreak U.S. soldiers raided on a winter village of the Northwest Band of Shoshone, killing over 250 men, women and children on a January 29 1863. Colonel Patrick Edward Connor and about 200 California Volunteers, with the help of Brigham Young’s Utah Militia attacked a Northwestern Shoshone winter village at the confluence of the Bear River and Beaver Creek.

Approximately 250 Shoshone were slain, including 90 women and children. After the slaughter ended, some of the undisciplined soldiers went through the Indian village raping women and using axes to bash in the heads of women and children who were already dying of wounds. Chief Bear Hunter was killed along with sub-chief, Lehi. The troops burned the 75 Indian lodges, recovered 1,000 bushels of wheat and flour, and appropriated 175 horses. While the troops cared for their wounded and took their dead back to Camp Douglas in Salt Lake City for burial, the Indians’ bodies were left on the field for the wolves and crows.

Anyone that thinks this chit was one sided needs to read more. The victors write the history. The defeated...as is obvious enough or should be... get ground into the dirt. Truth is we all practice "total war". Some just get it over with faster.
 

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By marriage I have connections to both sides of the "Mountain Meadows Massacre". Not long ago in part I wrote this here.
[We live in Cedar City, Utah. On 09/11/1857 "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" took place 45 miles SW of here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
A wagon train from Arkansas came through here and was attacked by the local Mormon Militia from Cedar City and local Indians. About 122 people on the wagon train were killed. Sixteen kids under age eight were spared as it was hoped they wouldn't remember the attack. We have family connections from both sides. My wife's stepmothers great great grandfather, John Doyle Lee was the only person later executed for his part leading the attack. My stepdaughter`s husbands ancestor was one of the spared orphans.]
That was bloody as it gets. We had local Mormon missionaries come to our door and I asked them what they knew about it. They had never heard about it!! This is a example of how true history is lost.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
While some argue that Black Kettle's village was peaceful, a number of his young braves were not, they went north of the Indian Territory line of the Arkansas River, attacking & killing a number of settlers & hunters. This photo was taken near Ft. Dodge before the 7th went in pursuit, tracking the hostiles to Black Kettle's camp, the image was the one that appeared on the cover of Harper's Weekly, leading to William S. Soules fame as a photographer. Shown are 2nd Lt. Read of the 3rd Infantry, along with U.S. Army Chief of Scouts John O. Austin with the body of Ralph Morrison,the buffalo hunter. 87505901_2948732572019665_4771405183466864640_n.jpg
 

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Both sides did bad, even evil things damn sure- but the peaceful American Indian is a myth, just like the peaceful Tibetan, some of both were peaceful but some were hardened warriors some of the most fierce ever born into this world. Americans are adverse to the truth those days it seems and can't handle the facts of history.



The historical record is there if you want to search it out. Like Cozmo said though- its not fun reading. Its blood meridian for real.
 

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Comments by Cozmo and Ugly remind me that I am not as tough as I sometimes think I am. I’ve read some of the books mentioned in this thread...and reached the point where it took very deliberate effort to go from one sentence to the next while reading some of the descriptions of Indian atrocities or just had to skip the rest of the details.

Moral missteps are part of the history of all nation states throughout history. But some cultures distinguish themselves with their talent for cruelty (which has its own value when trying to let folks know your intentions).
 

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sixguns said:
Comments remind me that I am not as tough as I sometimes think I am. I’ve read some of the books mentioned in this thread...and reached the point where it took very deliberate effort to go from one sentence to the next while reading some of the descriptions of Indian atrocities....

Thought about that myself while typing my previous comment. I like reading and history. A few of the books mentioned and many more I have in my library I simply didn't finish. What I could stomach as a younger man I have no desire to revisit today. I've see enough of the real thing ( and that hasn't been much by any means). I don't care to revisit how brutal any man can be white, red or brown.

During the Apache wars both sides gave their best to kill anyone that was different from them. One scene that shocked me when reading it...so likely a good author but also shows the world as it was.

Al Sieber was Chief of Scouts for the Army at the time. Sieber and a small group of his Apache Scouts had been out for several days on foot and had captured a couple of "bad" Apache. The story goes that all were sitting around a small fire Good Apache and Sieber (who spoke Apache) asking the Bad Apaches questions. At some point Sieber got the wrong answer, still seated and, no one seeing the motion, Sieber stuck a 7.5" Army Colt against the head of the offending Apache and pulled the trigger. To the shock of both Good and Bad Apache still seated. You can imagine the physical aftermath of a .45 at contact distance while sitting in a tight circle sitting around a small fire.

"Total War"…...no quarter given to their enemy, be it man, woman or child. Nothing more evil in this world than man.
 

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Both sides did bad, even evil things damn sure- but the peaceful American Indian is a myth, just like the peaceful Tibetan, some of both were peaceful but some were hardened warriors some of the most fierce ever born into this word. Americans are adverse to the truth those days it seems and can't handle the facts of history.



The historical record is there if you want to search it out. Like Cozmo said though- its not fun reading. Its blood meridian for real.
Who was the author & where was the book printed?
 
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