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not sure what to think about that thin saa cylinder wall. I've seen new in box guns where you could see a small shadow under the bolt notch. On the other hand I have an acquaintance who was trying to load a 45 colt to 45 acp +p pressures figuring that would be fairly safe. Through a little bit of extrapolation he ended up with a load of H-110 under the 270 SAA bullet, which weighed about 285 grains. He'd shot a fair number of them before he chronographed them. They ended up going 1350 FPS out of a 7 1/2" gun at what I'm assuming was far more that 23K PSI. I think the old Elmer Keith 2400 load is supposed to be running around 25,000 cup. I assume it's hard on guns in large quantities, but I haven't heard of it leaving numbers of blown guns in its wake either. I'm wondering if the slower powders like 2400 and h110 are easier on guns due to a more gentle pressure curve
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
285gr @ 1350fps from a SAA Colt or clone? No disrespect intended, but sorry but I aint believing that one. Those numbers are low to mid range .454 Casull loads and run 36,000 CUP in the Casull case. Aint no factory Colt SAA ever built that can take that kind of pressure and stay in one piece.

I am guessing the numbers are from a Ruger .
 
285gr @ 1350fps from a SAA Colt or clone? No disrespect intended, but sorry but I aint believing that one. Those numbers are low to mid range .454 Casull loads and run 36,000 CUP in the Casull case. Aint no factory Colt SAA ever built that can take that kind of pressure and stay in one piece.

I am guessing the numbers are from a Ruger .
From a colt new frontier using h110. I was there when they were chronoed. I'd guess they had to be running 25-30,000 cup, but who knows. Perhaps the chronograph was having a bad day. I've seen printed data in Handloader magazine that listed a 260 rcbs cast bullet over h110 at 1175 fps at 23000 psi. Hodgdon lists a 325 at 1260 running 27K cup. If a colt SAA were chambered in 45 acp and proofed at the factory the proof load would be 31,000-33,000 PSI according to SAAMI. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the SAA is strong or that anyone should hot rod it, Just an observation that surprised me.
 
Regressing to a previous post: I am absolutely fascinated with the differences between black and smokeless powder. Until I understand the differences (I don't yet, not having seen comprehensive chamber-barrel length curves for both side by side). I know this: a very, very light load of smokless in a worn (i.e, pitted) chamber will not extact easily; a black powder load of nearly twice the exit velocity will extract well in the same poor (i.e., pitted) chamber. It would seem that average pressure felt at the case is as important or more important than peak pressure. Pressure duration (i.e., time) matters. I do not understand well and will use black or black powder substitute in almost all blackpowder era guns until I understand. Regards, Ron
 
I've been reloading for at least 50+ years so i have definite ideas on the subject and on the guns used. For a time I was using a Dillon 550 press given to me by a Federal agent friend who had only used it for a couple of years and was getting out of reloading. I used the 550 for a couple of years for loading .45 ACP. Used it, that is, until one day at the range when instead of going bang, the Colt went phisst. Reason? No powder in the case. Self, I said, if that damned press can drop air into a case, maybe it can also drop double what it is supposed to drop. Stopped using the Dillon that day. Luckily my, by then retired, Federal agent friend voiced an interest in again reloading.............He got the Dillon back with no hesitation on my part. As to the .45 Colt case in the Colt SA I usually load 8grs. of Unique and a Keith 260 grain bullet. Used to load 9 grs. but there is no reason to shoot a load that heavy at the range. Also loaded 5 grs. of Bullseye for a while. It was accurate, but felt better using Unique in the Single Action.

I see several on this thread recommend only using BP in old Colts. To that, and I have commented on this before on this forum, plenty of shooters use smokeless in .45-70 Springfields, Martini Henry's, old '73 Winchesters, etc. RST loads shot shells with reduced pressure for Damascus barreled BP shot guns which I have often used with no ill affects in my old shot guns. The British regularly Nitro proof old Damascus barreled guns with regular modern proof loads and they usually pass this rigorous test and are then recommended for continuous shooting with full factory loaded smokeless ammunition. By this I am in no way recommending shooting BP SA's with factory smokeless stuff, although for many years most shooters regularly shot the new smokeless ammo in their older Colt's and apparently without mishap.

There are smokeless powder loads that give lower than BP pressures in a given cartridge. RST light smokeless loads do this and I have loaded smokeless 12 gauge shot shells that do the same. These were pressure tested to prove that. They give a velocity of about 1050 fps with 1oz. of shot. Have never loaded smokeless for black powder loads in the .45 Colt, but I'm sure it can be done, and probably is.

Never had a kaboom experience but came close shooting A S&W Hand Ejector in .455. Bulged cylinder stop notch cracked, but did not let go.
 
Succinctly put Ron. That's what I was attempting to get at in a round about way. It does seem the pressure duration is important and I haven't seen that addressed. It wouldn't surprise me if it is on the internet somewhere. I'll have to keep digging.
 
Another interesting point. I was told by a source I trust that fast powders will hit a gun harder than a slow powder at the same pressure. the example that was related to me was that a gun, say a ruger 45 colt, was fired with rounds loaded to 60,000 psi with both hs6 and h110. The gun loaded with hs6 came apart while the gun with the h110 loads appeared undamaged. I may have the caliber and pressures wrong, but hopefully get the basic idea across, that the time to maximum pressure even measured in milliseconds might play a part. I'm not sure if it's right or wrong. There could be several reasons why one gun came apart and the other didn't, but it was a concept that interested me. It may be a gross oversimplification, but was related to me as the difference between pushing a safe door and punching a safe door.
 
Discussion starter · #48 · (Edited)
Couple of the standards accepted for handguns by SAMMI printed out in PSI#s from their web site. PSI is not the same as CUP and is not directly transferable.

9mm 35,000
9mm+P 38,500
9x23 Win 54,000 (these are rifle pressures and will eventually break a 5" 1911)

As a comparison to how quickly pressures can spike in a hand gun case....
a 38 Super will run a 124gr bullet @ 1300 doing 36K PSI...where as the slightly smaller volume Win. 9x23 brass runs a 124gr bullet @ 1450 at 55K CUP. That is an additional 19K PSI for 150 fps. using the same bullet ! Imagine what happens when you start moving the bullet down in a case?!)

38 Super 36,000
38 Special 17,000
38 +P 20,000
357 mag 35,000
45acp 21,000
45+P 23,000
41 Mag 36,000
44 Sp 15,500
44 Mag 36,000
45 Colt 14,000
454 Casull 65,000

http://www.saami.org/specifications...ations/download/Z299-3_ANSI-SAAMI_CFPandR.pdf

By this I am in no way recommending shooting BP SA's with factory smokeless stuff, although for many years most shooters regularly shot the new smokeless ammo in their older Colt's and apparently without mishap.
I think the speculation of "many years without mishap" is at best misguided and at worst total fantasy. Guns have always blown up using factory ammo or hand loads. But prior to the Internet no one knew much about it or how often it happened unless is was a gun writer musing about their own exploits or the failures they had witnessed. Being as the SAA is one of the weakest big bore handguns still in production it stands to reason that a lot of them were destroyed in those mishaps.

When I first starting shooting in competition "double charges" were not uncommon in practice or on match day. Name your hand gun sport and it happened. That was long before SASS, IDPA or what later would be IPSC were games to be played and folks either shot a revolver or a 1911 for the most part.

I have to wonder now just how many of them were actually double charges when everyone was shooting the lightest loads possible in what ever gun they were running. Eventually IPSC brought on 9mm major and then 38 Super major and super face. And even that was seldom a dbl charge bu instead a unsupported case simply coming apart.

Anyone that has had a 45acp case blow out and also had a 38 Super @ major blow a case can clearly tell there is a distinct difference in pressure.

Bottom line? I'd suggest being very conservative in your reloading and ammo choices when shooting any vintage of Colt SAA or a NF in .45 Colt or 45acp.
 
Yahoody, if as you say, guns have always blown up using factory ammo I assume you mean factory stuff that is/was accidentally over loaded. If that is right, my statement is still correct about early smokeless factory ammo and older BP Colt's at the beginning of the last century. Some old SA's may indeed have blown up using the stuff, but what condition were these old Colt's in back then? Badly rusted and pitted, previously over stressed from who knows what, or just weak cylinders? I don't know because I have never read about those incidents. If failures were somewhat common I think stories about it would have been at least reported often enough to be repeated today.
 
Trail Boss is a fast powder. Its advantage is its bulk. I don't think it is safer, pressure-wise than other smokeless powders and should certainly not be considered a BP substitute. Gil.
Most people who have had a gun let go might disagree with me, but I feel that most gun blowups are due to inadvertently over charging or double charging. Trailboss is a big help in avoiding this, which is why I use it. I've never had a double charge, but did load a case without powder on a single stage press when I first started reloading, so realized early on that i'm not infallible. As to it being safer, I have yet to hear about a gun blowup while using it.
 
Story: around 1950 I was duck hunting with my dad and his friend. The friend had a beautiful Damascus barreled double which he was using and had been using with factory smokeless loads for years against the advice of friends et al. That was the day it let go; no injury, just barrel disaster. It appeared to have been in good condition, but the solder condition of Damascus barrels is pretty hard, perhaps impossible, to determine. Just passed it on for general information. Yes, I'm old. Regards, Ron
 
That is why the Brits reproof these guns if standard nitro shells are to be shot in them. Most of the good quality old doubles will stand at least some modern ammo use, but, you never know unless a given gun is proofed before use. Usually the action stretches a bit causing lose barrel lockup,..........called being "off the face" when it happens.
 
Now that I can get to my downstairs computer with photos on it I can show the two SAA .45s I have damage in 50 years of shooting them. Left is 1914 one that went Ka-Boom for no reason I could discern. On right is 1990s special order .45 with which I bulged two chambers because I didn't look closely at the powder can when pouring it into the measure. It now has proper, factory installed cylinder.
 

Attachments

So I went out and shot my fairly recently acquired Colt SAA with a spare fitted .45 ACP cylinder today. I paid extra attention to case extraction.

Factory 230 grain CCI Lawman JHP. Not a low end load. Cases fell out of every chamber.

No surprise I suppose. But this thread and a couple of other recent threads on timing and safety have been very good reminders to pay attention every time one takes a pistol in hand. Again, no surprising or earth shattering revelation in that. Something we should all know.

But nice for me to be reminded. Thanks to all who have contributed.
 
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