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Discussion Starter #1
cliffs

local guy gets his jewelry store robbed last week

this morning, some chummer tries to rob him again

bullets fly

owner shot once thru the leg, but he's ok

robber shot 4 times, quart low, but survives

used this gun

what is it?

 

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Discussion Starter #3
Does a Woodsman have some kind of a control on the right side of the frame or is that part of the grip panel?
 

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This was a good distraction, keeping me from doing work for about 20 minutes.

I'm going to guess it's a High Standard Sport King, based on the sight type and placement, and the lever on the right side. Funny choice for a robbery, but like they say, doesn't take brains to commit crime. Here's an example of a picture I found online, decide for yourself:

sportking.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'd put my money on "High Standard".
 

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Identical from the angle shown to my Hi Standard Model B. I don't think the subject gun has the contoured left grip panel though or it would not lay flat on the ground as it is in the photo.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
btw:

perp took 4 to the upper torso

out of surgery

getting patched up for the TX pen
 

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I'm thinking it is a Colt Challenger!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
perp was shot 4 times with a .45ACP
 

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Discussion Starter #12
update

Spoke at length with the business owner today.

Perp made everyone lay on the floor and had tie wraps to use as cuffs.

Owner only went down on one knee instead of laying down.

Perp began to load loot from the safe while turning and looking back as he held the gun on the owner.

Perp stopped and tried to put tie wrap on owner and during a mild struggle, shot owner through and through from butt to front thigh.

Owner began to bleed heavily (on blood thinner meds)

Perp began to leave, turned back and pointed gun at owner just as owner pulled a .357 Colt Trooper from behind the counter.

Owner shot perp several times COM with the .357! Two hollowpoints pass through the perp and break the front store windows.

Perp still gets to the front of the store and ducks down behind the front counter.

Owner retrieves a semi (Bersa?) .45ACP and shoots perp several more times.

Perp still manages to crawl through broken front door glass and collapses on the sidewalk.

EMS rushes perp to hospital and he lives to face trial.

Owner rearms and upgrades security again. (He'd been robbed 12 days before.)

Take note:
Four or five COM shots with .357 and .45ACP and perp remains active and doesn't die.
 

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Makes me wonder what they found in the perp's blood stream when he got to the ER? crack, meth, ???
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Makes me wonder what they found in the perp's blood stream when he got to the ER? crack, meth, ???
I asked that specific question, Ed.

The wife quickly replied, "If he was on drugs it had to be tranquilizers because he was so cool and methodical".

He never acted amp'ed up or excited even when he shot the owner early-on.

They found a "punch list" in his car with a step-by-step plan for the whole robbery.

Missing from that list was the "take multiple .357 and .45 ACP slugs". :D

As he lay slumped against the front wall and when the owner walked up on him with the .45, the perp begging him not to kill him.

So, the owner stood over him and let him crawl through the broken glass.

As the cops arrived he remained over the perp, gun drawn.

The cops didn't tell the owner to drop or lower his gun, but yelled for the perp to roll over. (He was on his stomach.)

The perp told them, "I'M NOT MOVING CAUSE HE SAID IF I MOVED HE'D SHOOT ME AGAIN!". ;)

Moral of story: the will to survive can be stronger than multiple pistol rounds
 

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Well...in a human torso, from the front or back especially, there are various places a Bullet can pass through without really doing any serious or Life Threatening damage.

One of these is close to the Heart, and, many stories exist through the History of Firearms, of people being shot through-&-through or even blind hole, from the front or back, with straightforward, unremarkable recoveries.

Other than the Heart or Aorta or Arteries being perforated, or a direct hit on the Spine, most anywhere else in the Torso is not going to be guarenteed to stop someone, or even necessarily phase or slow them. Even perforated Hearts or Aorta or Arteries may stilll allow the wounded to continue for however many seconds or even minutes, depending on the size of the tear or perforation, and, the rate of Blood Loss and Heart rate at the time.

Solid Hits to the Spine, tend to incapacitate instantly, at least physically, if not also with a loss of consciousness.

So...sure, two COM hits with .357, two with .45 ACP...just all depends on where the Bullet happens to pass or hit...as for whether the recipient looses consciousness, or, is partially or completely incapacitated or 'stops'...and, or, has an unremarkable recovery.
 

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update

Spoke at length with the business owner today...

Perp stopped and tried to put tie wrap on owner and during a mild struggle, shot owner through and through from butt to front thigh.

Owner began to bleed heavily (on blood thinner meds)

Perp began to leave, turned back and pointed gun at owner just as owner pulled a .357 Colt Trooper from behind the counter.

Owner shot perp several times COM with the .357! Two hollowpoints pass through the perp and break the front store windows.

Perp still gets to the front of the store and ducks down behind the front counter.

Owner retrieves a semi (Bersa?) .45ACP and shoots perp several more times.

Perp still manages to crawl through broken front door glass and collapses on the sidewalk.

EMS rushes perp to hospital and he lives to face trial.

Owner rearms and upgrades security again. (He'd been robbed 12 days before.)

Take note:
Four or five COM shots with .357 and .45ACP and perp remains active and doesn't die.
Very sobering indeed.

Makes me wonder what they found in the perp's blood stream when he got to the ER? crack, meth, ???
...Mobil 1 ???
 

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Since we don't know exactly where the 357 and 45 rounds hit the felon we can't draw a conclusion about the calibers.

Most combat veterans will tell you they vastly prefer long guns over handguns. Even with the 5.56 round which some folks don't feel is very effective. Even with rifle rounds it depends on where the projectile goes. The Beltway sniper killed what, 10 or 13 poor souls with his "puny" 5.56 rifle? Just to note, my favorite rifle caliber is 7.62x51 NATO but I'd sure hate to get shot with a 5.56 or a Russian 5.45 round.

The only constant is every shooting has variables and is different. There's no telling what's going to happen when a bullet hits. I know of a guy shot at about 4 ft. distance around the armpit area with a 25 acp that died within a few minutes. I know of another guy who was about 25 and weighed about 250lbs. that was also shot with a 25 acp that also died. I don't know where that shot landed.

Thanks for the update Doc. I hope that shopkeeper has a complete recovery.
 

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EPJ you hit the nail on the head. Bullet placement is the critical point, caliber is not as important. I have seen perps popped 4 times with a .357 mag, runoff and later found hiding in a field alive. The shots were marginal , and no vitals struck. Then I have seen victims hit once with .25 cal that were DOA. I have been in shootouts where the perps was struck multiple times with a .9mm, and lived to see a court room. Then I have been in armed conflicts that ended with one shot from a .380.

I recall my first rifle deer hunt in Pa. wih a group of "seasoned" hunters from work. I was new to hunting, and when I arrived with my rifle they all wanted to know what I shot. At that time I had a Ruger 77, in .243. That gun was tack driver. I was laughed at, and the brunt of many a joke by the "well armed" vets of the cabin. These guys were toting, .7mm mags, and .300 Winchesters etc...... Opening morning at first light the was so many shots being fired by my hunting buddies, I thought the deer were shooting back at them. When the smoke cleared, the guys I was hunting with, were all tracking deer that were hit poorly even after multiple shots with those cannons they were firing. Me on the other hand with my so called "pea shooter". Well I was in the cabin sipping hot coffee, and admiring my nice 8 pointer hanging on the pole outside. Oh I fired one shot, at the break of dawn, 100 yards heart shot deer took two steps and collapsed. That night guess who was telling jokes!!!!! LOL.
 

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The victim just didn't hit the jerk good enough. Those are the breaks, I guess. Another day, the cretin would have died, most certainly. Perhaps the idiot will get himself shot to death some other day.
 
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