Interesting Colt "Pre-Detective Special"

10323 Views 31 Replies 17 Participants Last post by twaits, Jun 24, 2012

up196

Discussion Starter · Feb 17, 2009

2

Here are two pictures of an early Colt's Detective Special that I recently acquired. The Colt's Archive letter indicates it was shipped as a 2" .38 in July of 1927 to one P. von Frantzuis (an uncommon name; I believe the correct spelling is actually von Frantzius).

Peter von Frantzius was the dealer who supplied one, and possibly both, of the Thompsons used at the S.M.C. Cartage Co. garage on February 14, 1929, as well as the Detective Special used on Chicago reporter Jake Lingle in 1930.

In the second picture, you can just make out the initials "WBR" on the frame between the top of the grip and the hammer, as if it was marked as evidence at one time.

If only it could talk, I suppose it would keep its mouth shut, ya hear!

See less See more

Status: Not open for further replies.

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

Colt75

· #2 · Feb 17, 2009

Fascinating firearm. Thanks for sharing. Interesting postings like this are what keep me checking in with the ColtForum. Thanks again and enjoy your Colt.

guy sajer

· #3 · Feb 17, 2009

If only it could talk, I suppose it would keep its mouth shut, ya hear!

Or end up face down in the river .

"Pre-DS"
Any chance we could see the barrel markings . Is it marked Police Positive Special ?

bmcgilvray

· #4 · Feb 17, 2009

What a great little gun and an intriguing letter! That one would be fun to own. Thanks for showing us.

The Real Hawkeye

· #5 · Feb 18, 2009

Very nice. I'm a big fan of the "Dick" Special. I've got four of them, covering three major variations.

j38

· #6 · Feb 18, 2009

That gun has character. I like it!

Thanks for the post,

Jerry

up196

Discussion Starter · #7 · Feb 24, 2009

2

guy sajer said:
Any chance we could see the barrel markings . Is it marked Police Positive Special ?

The revolver is marked "38 SPECIAL" on the left side of the barrel, with no other markings on the right side or top.

It's also made on the earlier, pre-1926 style frame, having a smooth, rounded topstrap instead of the flattened and serrated style, and has a smooth trigger and the smaller grip profile (bottom of the grip is only 1 1/2" front to back, not 1 3/4" like the later revolvers).

It's also interesting that, while the serial number is shown in the published tables as being a 1928 manufacture, the Colt's Archive letter shows it was shipped on July 28, 1927, and refers to it as a "Detective Special."

See less See more

JudgeColt

· #8 · Feb 24, 2009

There have been several threads on these early 2-inch, small-frame guns. Some letter as Detective Specials and some letter as Police Positive Specials. I think it partially depends on the era of the letter. Mine was lettered in 1981 and M. S. Huber was still the Historian then. Ms. Hoyt apparently letters them as Detective Specials. They cannot really be Detective Specials since the name had not been created at the time they shipped. Of course, Ms. Hoyt also adds an "M" suffix to Marshal serial numbers when issuing a factory letter, when the actual gun has no such suffix and was submitted with no suffix, so who knows why such strange things are done.

I have posted on these guns before and find that most are in fact shipped out of sequence. Mine shipped December 29, 1926 and has a 1928 era serial number. Notice the hand-stamped chambering designation, and the lack of any Colt identification anywhere. I think some forum member has a Police Positive Special box with a 2-inch barrel designation, and posted a picture. Since I already mixed up Shooting Master and New Service Target boxes tonight, I may be wrong on that issue too. A1A?

I THINK (remember the box errors already tonight!) most have concluded that these guns were special order Police Positive Specials. Mine letters with at factory order number of 12032/100, which I have always believed meant there were 100 guns in the order. Since my gun shipped as a single gun, that may also be incorrect. I do not know.

At some point, someone at Colt must have gotten the idea that a Police Positive Special with a 2-inch barrel would sell and the name was created to make a new model. The name was undoubtedly a factor in the popularity of the guns.

I love this unusual stuff!

See less See more

up196

Discussion Starter · #9 · Feb 24, 2009 (Edited)

JudgeColt said:
Mine letters with at factory order number of 12032/100, which I have always believed meant there were 100 guns in the order. Since my gun shipped as a single gun, that may also be incorrect. I do not know.

The factory order number for mine is 13235/100, and it was one of nine in the shipment.

I think the name change came about with the changes to the frames (what I call the 1926 changes, evidenced mainly by the different topstrap contour), that took place across the double action line, probably as a marketing strategy.

The 2" Police Positive Special with the updated frame became the Detective Special, while the 4" and longer PPS retained the name Police Positive Special.

Same thing with the .41 frame guns; the Army Special with the updated frame design became the Official Police, hence the overlap of serial numbers between the two, as the name is based on what is on the barrel instead of the frame.

JudgeColt

· #10 · Feb 25, 2009

The "name change" is in the factory letters, not on the guns. All of these "hand-stamp" 2-inch, "no-name" guns I have seen have the small, narrow butt, but some letter as "Police Positive Special" and some letter as "Detective Special." I could believe the ledger might have identified them as "Police Positive Special," but could not have identified them as "Detective Special" before the name was created. I think the researcher for a letter is just editorially applying the name "Detective Special" to a 2-inch .38 Special gun made in the latter 1920s because that is essentially what the gun is physically.

As I noted, Ms Hoyt added an "M" suffix to my Marshal serial number in her factory letter when the gun does not have one. She apparently believes (from the Blue Book or TBOCF?) that all Marshals have the "M" suffix and they clearly do not. Most do not. I think the same editorializing is occurring with these "Pre-Detective Special" revolvers.

Apparently the "100" portion of the factory order number does not mean 100 guns, although I guess it still could indicate a production run of 100 guns that were sold off in whatever quantities anyone ordered, before the next order of 100 was written.

See less See more

swamprat

· #11 · Feb 25, 2009

3

Here is the box Judgecolt was referring to, this gun is listed for sale in the "for sale" section of the Coltforum & on Gunbroker:

See less See more

thecoltguy

· #12 · Feb 25, 2009

Box for Pre Detective Special

Thanks Hugh for posting the photo. As Colt did with so many of the boxes that were low production guns, they created a box by pasting a new number on a pre existing label. All of the Officers Model Targets in .32 caliber were done this way.

twaits

· #13 · Jul 4, 2009

This is a very interesting thread that up196 just referred me to.

Swamprat, what is the deal with the notches in the front sight of that PPS that was shipped to DC?

I remember seeing that gun on Gunbroker. Beautiful. What did it end up selling for? Thanks!

swamprat

· #14 · Jul 7, 2009

twaits,
The notches are where someone added an insert, or was going to. It didn't sell, Ive still got it.

retiredgunsmith

· #15 · Jul 7, 2009

We saw a large number of the 2" Police Positive Special revolvers when I was the Colt Warranty repair man and parts distributor in NYC.
We were able to keep them going well into the 1980's. Only problem was replacement grips weren't available from the factory anymore.
That problem was solved by the use of "FRANZITE" grips--from Von Franzitius
in the Chicago area. Finally we obtained proper wooden checkered style stocks from "SILE" in Italy.]They had 'chicken' looking emblems on the mrdalions, and many had psuedo colt medalions installed somewhere.
NYC PD stopped members from using them as 'off-duty' or undercover guns due to their age.

twaits

· #16 · Jul 7, 2009

retiredgunsmith said:
We saw a large number of the 2" Police Positive Special revolvers when I was the Colt Warranty repair man and parts distributor in NYC.
We were able to keep them going well into the 1980's. Only problem was replacement grips weren't available from the factory anymore.
That problem was solved by the use of "FRANZITE" grips--from Von Franzitius
in the Chicago area. Finally we obtained proper wooden checkered style stocks from "SILE" in Italy.]They had 'chicken' looking emblems on the mrdalions, and many had psuedo colt medalions installed somewhere.
NYC PD stopped members from using them as 'off-duty' or undercover guns due to their age.

Question: were Franzite grips manufactured by P Von Frantzius?
I've heard of Franzite grips for years, my Dad has an old set on a
PPK. But this forum is the first time I've heard of P. Von Frantzius.

retiredgunsmith

· #17 · Jul 7, 2009

Yes.
Von F was the man behind FRANZITE.
They supplied grips [stocks] for almost any and every kind of handgun.
He was not the easiest to deal with. His stuff almost always fit with not alteration.
I still have a pair or two for H&R Young America" either small frame .32 or .22
revolvers.
His "Ortgies" grips were on most of the .32 and .380 pistols were encountered
after about 1960-1970.

pawncop

· #18 · Jul 7, 2009

I think if you "questioned" this revolver too hard, a "ride" might be involved.

mike hudson

· #19 · Jul 8, 2009

gosh, i wonder where von franzius got the dough to start the franzite grip business?

twaits

· #20 · Jul 8, 2009

Retiredgunsmith,

Thank you for the interesting info. Also, it's nice to have a former Colt
gunsmith here. I'm sure you will be able to offer lots of help here on the forum.
I am current Bushmaster gunsmith who wishes he was retired

Take care.

Erik

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

Status: Not open for further replies.