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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've been told that iron sighted guns vary POA/POI depending on shooter.

I have found ......the shooter does indeed effect the POA/POI but the shooter has zero to do with what the gun is actually capable of.

Generally I have found with iron sighted guns, if the sights are square on the gun, gun is held vertical, 1911 or SAA, then the gun will shoot on for windage. Ammo and front sight will determine what you need for front sight height. A handgun (just as a rifle) can gain BIG dividends for accuracy from hands loads that match the gun.

There aren't many shooters who don't cant a gun in their hand/hands, flinch or add something that is not required, which pulls the shot.




Common errors listed on charts are some mix (with some additions or subtractions) of the following.
Thumbing — Too much thumb pressure that drives the barrel toward the side of the strong hand.
Healing — driving the heel of your hand in to the pistol grip.
Trigger finger placement — usually too much or too little on the trigger which pushes the barrel inward or outward.
Anticipation — Pushing on the gun prior to recoil in order to halt the effect of recoil OR “riding” the recoil by unconsciously “assisting” the elevation of the muzzle in anticipation of recoil “since the gun was going ‘up’ anyway.”
Jerking — Jerking the trigger vice a steady increase in trigger pressure which causes unnecessary movement in the barrel during the shooting process.
Grip pressure — usually strong & support side & again too much & too little.



5 bullets in one hole...operator error on the sixth at 10:30/ 11:00.


See a pattern there? No follow through because I want to see what I hit....or didn't with these two targets. Before and after cutting down a front sight below.



Most but not all guns (handgun or rifle) will be more accurate than the owner is capable of. But worth noting I said...most, not all.

Discuss?
 

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Last shot jitters is the reason that one went right. Gun was S&W Hand Ejector, 2nd Model .455 that lettered to the Canadian Gov't in 1916. Bullets were Hornady's 255 swaged lead RN/FP intended for the cowboy action crowd. Range was 50 feet, standing, one hand.
 

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I've shot rifle since I was 11...A Lot!! I'm talking daily. I've been able to wring out the best in a rifle.
Not many guys can shoot better than me with a long gun....a hand gun? That's another story! And that's only because I lacked logging in time with such. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want me shooting at me with a handgun

it takes: practice, practice, practice and for you purists in eloquence...PERFECT practice. There's no substitute. Sure there's guys that are "naturals" but they still need to hone their skills with muscle memory and differing conditions.

An elk and lion guide buddy took me out last week to shoot a whitetail doe with my general tag.
We were driving to the top a hill and spied a doe and buck 180 yards below. He said go ahead take her if you want.
...so I put on my orange cap, grabbed my rifle and one cartridge. Took a couple steps away from they truck, got down on one knee, raised the rifle and fired. her front legs buckled and she motored 20 feet into the weeds on her chest.
My guide buddy yelled "Wow! Great shooting".
It was great shooting: a vintage 1901 Winchester 1894 in 30-30 with front and rear sight wore to nubbins from being in a scabbard for 40 years. Years and years of knowing what the gun and I am capable of is one of the best feelings!
 

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Meat in the freezer. Good job, LABill.

Too bad you had a "rifle" tag; you could have downed her with your Colt!

And on shooting these Colts--
I'm still learning how to shoot well with my .38 WCF's. With my Ruger Buckeye, I can create targets like Yahoody's good one. Can't do it with the Colts.

Two days ago I received a new batch of test bullets. Hoping to find a better load with them than what I have come up with so far. Since I am a novice at shooting SAA's (less than a year), I do need to shoot the Colts more--which I'll not complain about!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Cascades said:
...And on shooting these Colts--
I'm still learning how to shoot well with my .38 WCF's. With my Ruger Buckeye, I can create targets like Yahoody's good one. Can't do it with the Colts..........
Yet....

The Colt SAA is a difficult gun to shoot well. Long slow hammer drop, terrible sights and difficult to hold for follow through. All the things you don't want in hand gun to shoot accurately. Which is exactly why I continue to shoot the SAA. It aint easy :bang_wall: And for all the same reasons why a 1911 is so easy to shoot well. Or your Ruger Buckeye :cool:
 

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Something to keep in mind when discussing the SAA and it's accuracy is its original intent. It was never meant to be a target gun. It was a service revolver and was designed to meet the standards of a combat or military firearm. Think of the military 1911s you've seen. Simple sights, a trigger pull that wasn't overly light, and parts fitted with an eye to reliability rather than match accuracy. I can't remember the specifics right now (someone here probably has then to hand) but I remember reading what the Ordnance Dept required of their new revolver in the early 1870s. It didn't require small groups, rather it was a reasonable standard, like hitting a silhouette out to 50 yards or so and continuing to function after continued firing.

My point is, the SAA still does what it was intended to do way back when. It will hit a human size target with great regularity and effectiveness at closer ranges where the handgun becomes the weapon of choice and necessity.

My $.02 worth,
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Dave_T said:
Something to keep in mind when discussing the SAA and it's accuracy is its original intent. It was never meant to be a target gun. It was a service revolver and was designed to meet the standards of a combat or military firearm. Think of the military 1911s you've seen. Simple sights, a trigger pull that wasn't overly light, and parts fitted with an eye to reliability rather than match accuracy....
I understand your point. But mine would be "don't throw out the baby in the bath water". Some of the nicest 1911s ever made were put together by hand between the WWI and WWII. Most of the disappointed comments made about a 1911 came from WWII GIs issued worn out WWI 1911s. But still even a worn out 1911 was a good handgun to start a novice shooter on...still is. Because it is exceptionally easy to shoot well. There was a day the SAA dominated target shooting in American. A time when target shooting with the family was more popular than baseball. A SAA is difficult to shoot because of its dated technology. But that doesn't mean it won't shoot exceptionally well. Anyone that truly wants to master shooting a handgun at some point will want to work with a SAA just to experience just how difficult it really is to shoot a SAA well. Those trying to shoot a SAA as their first hand gun might go away disappointed and move on to another gun not knowing what they experienced and why.

I know lots of folks that don't think much of a 1911 or a SAA as handguns. But truth is both are exceptional designs that have been well proven over time. Sure there are other guns made today that make shooting easier and may be even more fun if lack of recoil and hitting the target are important :bang_wall: But not much history behind them to experience when you pull those triggers :cool:
 

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If I had to shoot at something in total darkness by instinct alone I would choose a Colt SAA. Namely my Storekeeper as it just naturally points for me. I can shoot my 7 ½” barreled SAA’s accurately although I need my Merit optical attachment on my glasses to get good sight alignment. The rounded top of the frame gives me a problem with getting the top of the front sight just right. I have done some shooting in the dark just to practice in case I have to deal with a critter at night when I’m in the boonies and it’s hard to do. I envy instinctive shooters.
 

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If I had to shoot at something in total darkness by instinct alone I would choose a Colt SAA. Namely my Storekeeper as it just naturally points for me. I can shoot my 7 ½” barreled SAA’s accurately although I need my Merit optical attachment on my glasses to get good sight alignment. The rounded top of the frame gives me a problem with getting the top of the front sight just right. I have done some shooting in the dark just to practice in case I have to deal with a critter at night when I’m in the boonies and it’s hard to do. I envy instinctive shooters.
I learned this technique when I was in the Army taking advanced combat pistol shooting at Ft. Gordon. After this course where may rounds were fired, I learned to "point shoot" and a lot was at night by sound and whatever light may be available, if any. This was not a target shooting course, but 2 1/2 days if learning and knowing where to shoot. All this was done with my USGI issued .45 acp pistol. I never worried much about the pistol condition, but mine was a good one. The main point we learned was to let your "Mind" do the work, and don't depend on your eyes, they will "fool you" but your mind never will. In total darkness, after a view of the target, we would shoot groups that a can of Skoal would cover up! I have not used sights since then.
 

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Most, if not all the time "instinct shooters" are made by 1000s of rounds going down range prior to developing that instinct :)
Ain't that the truth? While not an instinct pistol shooter, I do shoot traditional archery on instinct only. It has taken me a whole lot more than 1000 arrows down range to get where I am half as good as those compound device guys with their sights. And I get worse if I take even a week from launching arrows.

I learned this technique when I was in the Army taking advanced combat pistol shooting at Ft. Gordon. After this course where may rounds were fired, I learned to "point shoot" and a lot was at night by sound and whatever light may be available, if any. This was not a target shooting course, but 2 1/2 days if learning and knowing where to shoot. All this was done with my USGI issued .45 acp pistol. I never worried much about the pistol condition, but mine was a good one. The main point we learned was to let your "Mind" do the work, and don't depend on your eyes, they will "fool you" but your mind never will. In total darkness, after a view of the target, we would shoot groups that a can of Skoal would cover up! I have not used sights since then.
I didn't realize Ft. Gordon had an advanced anything training. The vast majority of my training, advanced or otherwise, was unfortunately done at good old benning.
 

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bighipiron, Yahoody,Abwehr, I too am an instinctive archer and I shoot a 70's vintage Black Widow bow. I agree with you 100%, and I know that if you miss a week of shooting an instinctive shooter looses the edge. However, I have shot bullseye competition in both handgun and archery and when I try to mix the two it drives me nuts. Like oil and water. I had a friend (now deceased) that was one of the best shots with a rifle or shotgun that I have ever known. I asked him one time if he used his sights with a gun and it totally blew his mind and it affected his shooting for awhile because he started thinking about it. I never mentioned it again. He was a sniper during the Korean War so I suspected that he certainly used his sights. A great thread as usual Yahoody. Joseph
 

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I know lots of folks that don't think much of a 1911 or a SAA as handguns. :cool:
So what you are saying is that since my 7 1/2 SAA was made in 1911, I'm going to have a doubly hard time stacking bullets in one hole! ;) Good thing it is pouring heavy rain here, or I might just fall into depression.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Shooting is a degenerative skill. Use it or loose it. I have shot with and taken classes from some of the best pistol shooters in the world. Most of them are equally as good with a rifle. In a world where only hit count and speed in measured in hundreds of a second everyone uses their sights. The speed at which the shot needs to break and the distance to the target defines the time and precision of the sight picture.

A "flash' sight picture might be the front of the barrel or top of a 1911 slide or it might be the front sight some where close to the notch on a SAA top strap. Or just the blade of the front sight some where in front of you. The flash sight picture shot might take .75 of a second or less from leather to making a perfect hit on a balloon or a steel tombstone target @ 7 yards. Where a precision shot on 4 inch square at 25 or 100 yards will need a perfectly squared front sight in the rear sight notch might well take anything from 1.5 seconds on up.

I've seen guys hit an 8" steel target from the leather time and time again in a second and a half to 2 seconds at 50 yards not using their sights. But they were sighting along the top of their 1911 slide.....very quickly :) But if the shot had to hit at 50 yards...when it wasn't just a game........the best went prone and used their sights. No secrets to shooting a firearm and getting consistent hits. All it takes, sight alignment, trigger press, a surprise break and follow through :bang_wall: Distance and time define the fight and should define how you use your sights.

Researchers believe it takes between 1000 and 30,000 repetitions of an activity for it to become second nature to you. That many reps to ingrain the memory of how a muscle is suppose to work into your brain. As LABill mentioned previous to do it right all that repetition needs to be perfect practice. 1000 rounds down range won't do it. Needs to be 1000 perfect rounds down range :)
 

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When I first moved here to Wyoming friends back in PA asked what I was going to do.
The only thing certain that I could answer was "shoot a can off my fence post with my Colt until my thumb bleeds".

Yanking my old 32-20 out of the holster and shooting at the "bad guy" (can) sent a lot of lead into my back stop. Most times the can persisted.
It only took about 800 shots for my thumb to swell and split open.
I guess I'll have to take my time and aim.

This is interesting if you can stand Bob for 43 seconds it's worth tut watch.
https://youtu.be/Tied-t1fFsk
 

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25 yards and bullets going into one hole??? Holy (intentional pun) Moses, are you guys shooting off hand or from a bench? This afternoon I shot 50 rounds each through my 1922 (5 1/2 in) and 1956 (4 3/4 in) 44-40s. At 30 feet, shooting off hand with one and alternately two hands, I had great difficulty placing shots in a 2 inch bulls eye; only hitting center about 10% of the time with the remainder punching holes in a 5-6 inch group. I always thought that to be respectable but now I think much more practice is in order.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Chaz1 said:
25 yards and bullets going into one hole??? Holy (intentional pun) Moses, are you guys shooting off hand or from a bench?....
For me 25 yards/one hole is off a sitting rest, generally over my range bag. But to shoot one hole groups you start at 5 or 7 yards (standing or sitting supported or not, what ever is required to get it done) Until you can shoot one hole at 5 yards you won't be doing it at 10 yards or 25 yards. When I am shooting some I can generally off the couch shoot one hole groups at 7 yards standing unsupported. But it won't be in the first 20/50. May be the second 50 if I don't get too tired. (you have to know when to stop shooting and never leave the range after a bad string) When I am burning up ammo and shooting several times a week I can do it at 15 standing. When I can do that I start shooting 25 yard groups over my range bag while sitting.

I don't post pictures of all the shitty targets I shoot. And I shoot a lot more of them :)

But if you are missing the x ring....you are not doing good practice. Better to shoot less, at closer targets and dry fire more. I dry fire for hours (minutes per session) compared to minutes shooting live ammo at the range.

Something to think about. At 30 feet/10 yards with two handed, slow deliberate fire, one should be able to see and then hit a common button on a man's dress shirt. When you can do that you should be able to hit a man center of mass at 30 yards.

At some point a 5 gallon paint can at 200 yards is likely in trouble :cool:
 

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Thanks, your comments will be a great help and I'll get to work on this. And, BTW, I do wear a cowboy hat, live simply and carry a shovel as well as a 1943 Ithaca (not a Colt but close enough) when working.

May 2017.jpg
 

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If you know how to use one, a heavy "Pony #2" shovel can be more effective than a pistola out here in the California badlands, but that's a story for another place. In the meantime, I'll use my Ithaca or another 1911/1911A1 as a scientific control for "button shooting" because they are one hole shooters at 10 yards...I'm used to them and .45s make bigger holes than .44s...hehehe.
 
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