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Is a C&R license more trouble than it's worth?

3K views 26 replies 16 participants last post by  Babalooie 
#1 ·
Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

I purchase about 12 guns and sell about 6 guns annually. Would I receive any benefit by obtaining a C&R license? Is it just too much hassle? I pay my FFL dealer $20 per each visit. If I group them up I save money. In the next several days I'll pickup 3 guns in one visit and the cost will be a total of $20. Where as 3 seperate visits would cost $60. I look forward to the feedback.
 
#2 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Addict, I believe the C&R FFL has remains at thirty bucks per year, so you would generate a cost savings almost immediately. There is also the obvious convenience of having the firearms delivered to your door. The real question only you can answer is, what is your level of personal paranoia in dealing with a possible ATF compliance visit (whice might never happen), keeping aquisition and disposition records etc. For me, I was not worth it. I dropped mine when William Jefferson was elected.
 
#3 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Addicted:
The Curio and Relic license is $30 for three years. To qualify for the C&R list, a firearm must meet one of several criteria, such as being at least 50 years old.
Whether such a license is worthwhile depends upon what kind of firearms hold your interest.
JT
 
#4 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

For me it was well worth it! Like you I was paying $20.00 a pop. I am interested in pre 1945 Colts and Smiths so it was worth my time and efforts. $30.00 for 3 years is a bargain. The bound book is not a hassle. Do like I did and make it yourself from a looseleaf binder. I think you can download the forms from cuffler.com
 
#5 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

If you order anything from Brownell's, you will easily recoup your $30 in three years. If you send them your C&R FFL, you get their "dealer" pricing. Not all items are discounted (especially Brownell gunsmithing tools), but many items are and it can add up quickly. I believe Midway offers a similar deal.
 
#7 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Lets not ignore the obvious benefit of buying collector handguns out of state without the hassle of transferring it through a FFL. Thought about getting one many times and keep going back to the fact that I don't buy enough handguns to make it worth the hassle. Addicted, in your case it would probably be a good move for you personally.
 
#8 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

[ QUOTE ]
Lets not ignore the obvious benefit of buying collector handguns out of state without the hassle of transferring it through a FFL. Thought about getting one many times and keep going back to the fact that I don't buy enough handguns to make it worth the hassle. Addicted, in your case it would probably be a good move for you personally.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the Tulsa gun show I concluded that I am putting in for a C&R. Two of my purchased guns were dealer transfers. I had to hunt down Kansas FFL dealers so I could bring them home. It took 3 hours to make all this happen.

I found a guy with a C&R application. I'm filling it out and sending it in. No more hassle and I believe the other hassle I can deal with.

All, thanks for the input.
 
#10 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

I've heard you can have problems on resale of your guns.Just heard a problem,but not to clear on it.The C&R is suppose to be for collectors and if a gun is found in circulation too soon after a purchase by the C&R collector then that is what they frown on,,,but don't quote me.
Joe
 
#11 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

[ QUOTE ]
Do like I did and make it yourself from a looseleaf binder.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful there, chief. I think "bound book" means the pages are attached permanently.

As far as selling- A C&R is supposed to be used to enhance your own collection not a sellers/dealers license. Some people take it to mean order three rifles, keep the pick of the litter and sell the other two to recoup. Is this bad? Dunno.

Addicted. I think it will work for you. Most, if not all, you pick up is older than 50 years and qualifies to be shipped directly to you.

Brian
 
#12 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Kevin
I talked to my friend who has a class 3 dealers license.He told me that you can not resale any guns you buy with the C&R license.This is like you can NEVER resell the gun,no if's and or buts.Maybe there is a clause that you can sell it to a FFL license holder.Anyway he told me it is a ten(10)year offense.This license is suppose to be for collectors only.It is like when you buy M1's through the CMP program.When you buy a M1 from CMP and don't want it no more you have to turn it back into them.Lots of people do resell CMP rifles but you're doing it at your own risk.Same way with the C&R guns,resell at your own risk and hope it dont go through 3 or 4 buyers and someday winds up in a murder or robbery and they see "Mr Kevin Addicted" use to own this,we need to talk to him,he was suppose to have it in a collection.

I'm just trying to keep you legal bud because we all have more to lose then the few extra dollars it takes to pay an FFL for shipping a gun across state lines.And if I'm wrong I'll glady accept it that my source told me wrong.
Joe
 
#13 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Well as a C&R license holder, I looked it up. Here is what ATF states regarding the sale of firearms for holders of a C&R. I hope this helps you with your decision.


ATF Instructions on disposition of C & R firearm:

178.125 "Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. ...The sale or other dispostion of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the lecensed collector no later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commerical record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded..." When to a non-licensee the seller should "show the date of the sale, name and address of person and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition you must
1."cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified (drivers license) and note on the record the
method 2. Verify his identity in the state (para phrased this one) 3. Format required for the record is as follows: Manufacturere, Model, serial #, type, caliber, date, name and address. When dispossing of you need: Name and address, date of birth (of non-licensee), drivers license number

One last item. ATF in a letter last January states you cannot "engage in business" as an C&R holder and they define this as..."refers to a person or entity that devote time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a REGULAR COURSE OF TRADE OR BUSINESS WITH THE PRINCIPAL OBJECTIVE OF LIVELIHOOD AND PROFIT THROUGH THE REPETITIVE PURCHASE AND RESALE OF FIREARMS" (CAPITAL ADDED FOR EMPHASIS).
 
#14 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

I have a C&R license.

Here's the facts:

It costs $30.00 for three years. You have to make out the application in duplicate, sending a copy to your local police chief. You also have to fill out and include with your application a form, provided by ATF, that relates to either IRS or US citizenship. I forget the actual purpose, other than the fact that they will return your application if you don't include it.

ATF sent out a bulletin a while back, earlier this year, stating the purpose of a C&R is to allow collectors to aqcquire firearms as specified, from OUT OF STATE. This means, you can't go to your local FFL and buy a gun using your C&R. You still have to comply with all firearms regulations as a private citizen, you are not a pseudo-dealer.

A bound book can be a loose leaf binder type book that holds pages, like the one you had in school. The big thing is to have the information spelled out in the manual ATF sends.

You can sell your guns, however ATF expects you to keep them for at least a year, I'm told. If you sell a gun that you bought with your C&R, make sure you have a good explaination why you got rid of it. In other words, don't expect to buy 2 of something, with the idea of selling one to pay for the other. ATF really doesn't like that.

You can get discounts from Brownells and Midway USA. This alone can pay for the license.

You can have C&R elegible handguns sent via USPS from a FFL to your home, but you may not send handguns to anyone via USPS. Only a FFL dealer may do that, and you're not a dealer.

Hope this helps.

I've had my C&R for almost two years and will renew it.
 
#15 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

I send back gun that do not meet my satisfaction? This is done within the first 3 days of arrival. Do I take legal possession of the gun upon it's arrival? Will it be frowned up by sending the gun back so soon when I have a legit reason as didn't meet buyer satisfaction?
 
#16 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

During the 3 day inspection period, you are not committed to keep the gun. If you keep it, then, it's yours.

In spite of the fact you're dealing with government bureaucrats, there still has to be some common sense built into the system. They're just trying to prevent people from becoming C&R "dealers".
 
#17 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Now this is getting good,,a bit confuseing but interesting non-the-less.I'd like to be a bit more clarified,,,or speak in non legal terms.I got to keep my eyes on this thread.I'll ask some questions to you guys in a day or so if questions haven't been answered,,I,,like Kevin would like to have a gun delivered to my house also.I even been thinking of getting a regular FFL
Joe
 
#18 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

i will add just a little, a c&r excludes you from the gca of 68 on guns that qualify. you may buy and sell as you like as long as you are not doing it as a business. if you buy a collector gun today and find a better example next week you would be justified in selling the first to aquire the second. of course your record book would be excellent evidence should you ever be questioned.should you decide to drop your lic. you do not have to turn in your records as an ffl does.as long as you are a collector, building or upgrading your collection. a c&r is a terrible bargain at 30$ per 3 yrs. it will save that on gas driving to the ffl.
 
#21 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

[ QUOTE ]
just think of the ink you`ll save filling out those yellow sheets.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're not yellow anymore. Now they're white. They've been out for about 2 weeks and I've already filled out 5 of them. I'm mailing in my C&R this weekend.

I hope my wife never opens the packages when they arrive at my front door. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
#22 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Ok guys,

Not to butt in here, but this is a great site for C&R info.

C&R info

I received my C&R awhile ago. Not purchased anything on it yet, but plan to.

As was stated it is a "collectors license" not a dealers license. You should be very careful on selling these guns.

Also check out this for bound book pages. 7th post down.

Bound book pages

Ken
 
#24 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

Ok,

Here is some info that helped me. Great bunch of people over at the site though.

Ken



From the FAQ section of the ATF Online site:

G. COLLECTORS

[G1] Is there a specific license which permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce?

Yes. The person may obtain a collector's license; however, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms. [27 CFR 178.41( c), (d), 178.50( b) and 178.93]

[G2] Does a collector's license afford any privileges to the licensee with respect to acquiring or disposing of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce?

No. A licensed collector has the same status under the GCA as a nonlicensee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms. [27 CFR 178.93]

[G3] Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?

No. A dealer's license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics. A collector's license only enables the collector to obtain curio and relic firearms interstate. [18 U. S. C. 922( a) and 923( a)( 1), 27 CFR 178.41]

[G4] Since a licensed firearms dealer may legally receive firearms interstate, including curios or relics, is there any reason why a dealer would need both a dealer's license and collector's license?

No. [27 CFR 178.50( b)]

[G5] Are licensed collectors required to execute ATF Form 4473 for transactions in curio or relic firearms?

No. Licensed collectors are only required to keep a "bound book" record. [27 CFR 178.125( f)]

[G6] Are licensed collectors' transfers of curio or relic firearms subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees?

No, but it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. (See also Questions P13 and P14.) [18 U. S. C. 922( d), 27 CFR 178.32( d)]

[G7] Are licensed collectors required to comply with the requirements that written notification be given to handgun transferees and signs be posted on juvenile handgun possession?

The requirement that written notification concerning juvenile handgun possession be given by licensees to a nonlicensee to whom a handgun is delivered applies to curio or relic handguns transferred by licensed collectors. However, the sign posting requirement does not apply to licensed collectors. In the case of collectors, a requirement to post signs at the licensed premises would serve no purpose because the premises is not a business premises open to the public and licensed collectors may lawfully dispose of curio or relic handguns away from their licensed premises. [18 U. S. C. 922( x), 27 CFR 178.103]

[G8] Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/ disposition records to ATF if their collector's license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?

No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearms "business" is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. This is in contrast to firearms importers, manufacturers, and dealers who are licensed to engage in a firearms business. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collector's licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.[18 U. S. C. 923( g)( 4), 27 CFR 178.127]
_________________________________________________

Helpful Websites:

This is the ATF's main webpage, which includes information about the Curio & Relic license, the "current" Curio & Relic list, and other pertinent information.

ATF online main page

This is the National Licensing Center's main webpage, which gives information about the services provided by the NLC, included here is an email address that may prove very helpful in contacting the NLC in regard to one's license status.


Naitonal Licensing Center main page

If you need to email the NLC to check the status of your licensure, try this:

nlc@atf.gov

At this link one may order the appropriate forms to apply for the C&R license:

F 5310.16 (F7CR) - Application for License (Collector of Curios and Relics) Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms

One will also need:

F 5330.20 - Certificate of Compliance With 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B)

And, if one is needing to amend their license due to relocation of other factors, this form may be ordered as well:

F 5300.38 - Application For An Amended Federal Firearms License Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms

ATF Form Distribution Center

PLEASE NOTE: The forms F 5330.20 - Certificate of Compliance, and F 5300.38 - Application For An Amended Federal Firearms License can be downloaded from the ATF Online site, in the Forms section.
 
#25 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

NJ residents should exercise caution in obtaining a C&R. According to Evan Nappen, it is inadvisable because the NJ State Police and ATF work so closely that often an ATF agent answers the State Police phone in the firearms section. So what, you might ask? Nappen's point is that you're completely open to midnight inspections at their whim, losing any privacy and will have to account for each and every gun you have, even those you had prior to the C&R. Mostly, the NJ State Police are overzealous in pursuing relatively harmless C&R collectors in this extremely anti-gun state. After all, why go after real criminals when you can get big headlines by busting a 60 year old "kitchen table dealer" who makes a technical mistake in his record book?

This is a real shame, because most of what I collect qualifies, and I could also have saved lots of money over the past 20 years, plus I go to lots of out of state gun shows. Actually, NJ has no gun shows, so all gun shows are out of state for me.
 
#26 ·
Re: Is a C&R license more trouble than it\'s worth?

[ QUOTE ]
During the 3 day inspection period, you are not committed to keep the gun. If you keep it, then, it's yours.

In spite of the fact you're dealing with government bureaucrats, there still has to be some common sense built into the system. They're just trying to prevent people from becoming C&R "dealers".

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wanted to jump in and say that with a C&R you are allowed to sell a gun at anytime if it is to purchase another to improve your collection. Also I would be careful with the three day inspection period. I work in a gun shop part time and what we do there (also what I do with my C&R) is check the gun in and check it back out to the same dealer with a notation in your book that it was shipped back. This I know seems like a bit of a hassle but who wants any trouble with the BATF. Also the best book to use for a C&R is ask if you can purchase a book from your FFL dealer like they use, it has all the right info needed. There is also many guns that qualify for C&R that are not more than 50 years old (most of the Colt Commemoratives for one). You can find a list of them on the BATF website.

But if you collect guns that qualify for the C&R list then a C&R license is well worth it, just in the time saved in not waiting for the check to come back. You can (at least in NH) use the C&R in your home state to purchase C&R guns from a dealer.
 
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