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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So I won this pre war Woodsman Bullseye Match Target today. It has some problems, but I think its good for what I paid. Unfortunately I have to get the grips professionally repaired, but at least I have that option (usually the grips are gone in my experience). Aside from the crack, the grips are pretty nice. I'm hoping the gun will clean up some (it has some surface rust in places but nearly all of the finish remains). Also, the rear sight appears replaced. Where could I get an original one?

So, how did I do? (I don't intend to sell, just curious) Can anyone recommend a really good grip guy to do the repair? How well do these shoot?

I always wanted one of these "bullseyes", and either never had the money, or when I had the money, couldn't find the gun. I've seen these in lesser condition bring the same money, even sometimes when messing the elephant ear grips. I'm pretty happy overall but that might be due to my ignorance about these. I know the basics, but I also don't see them for sale locally / in person ever, so their true worth to me is cloudy. Asking prices seem to vary widely. I figured there would be some competition for this one, but luckily there was not.

Colt Woodsman Bullseye Match Target 22 LR 6 5/8" : Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com
 

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This is a good price on this match target Bullseye. I own a few and as yours, many have problems with the grips and need repair. I don't shoot my Bullseyes with the wooden grips, but will shoot those with the plastic grips or reproductions.
Ted
 

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...Also, the rear sight appears replaced. Where could I get an original one?
The rear sight is replaced, by what appears to be a King Gunsight Co No. 162 for pre-WWII Woodsman Sport or Target. The No. 164 was for the "New Match Target" in the 1938 Catalog, and has a wider base for the wider dovetail on the Match Target. Hard to tell from the photographs, but it looks to be the narrower base. If so, then no need to look for an original Stevens rear sight because it would not fit anyway. A regular Target Model or Sport Model slide will fit on a Match Target, and would have the narrower rear sight dovetail. I would most definitely check the serial number on the underside (inside) of the slide to see if it matches the frame.

The screw in front of the trigger guard is probably for the Berdon Patented adjustable over travel stop. Not original, but not necessarily a bad thing either. It probably has a very nicely tuned trigger.
 

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I think you got a pretty good deal despite the negatives. You have got a really great Woodsman MT shooter. Be sure and let us know how is shoots when you get it to the range. Bet it is a real tackdriver. Enjoy your Colt.
 

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I think you got a pretty good deal despite the negatives. You have got a really great Woodsman MT shooter. Be sure and let us know how is shoots when you get it to the range. Bet it is a real tackdriver. Enjoy your Colt.
I agree. Probably a very good shooter, and probably once belonged to a serious paper puncher. The rear sight is arguably better than the original, and with the trigger job it will probably be a really good shooter, even if the slide is a mismatch (and I'm not sure from the photos that it is). I would put a set of inexpensive, but comfortable, late '30s era target grips on it. You can hold the present Elephant Ear grips for restoration at some future date for a more collectible gun.

BTW, I now notice that the magazine is a regular Woodsman magazine, not a MT magazine. Works exactly the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for all the advice / comments. I will wait to get it and go from there. For $930, you couldn't even get a new S&W 41 and probably some of the higher end Rugers are nearly $800 or even more. For a little more than that, I get a gun with history and a soul, and grips that are reminiscent of greasy sugary fried dough from the county fair. How could I lose?
 

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BTW, I now notice that the magazine is a regular Woodsman magazine, not a MT magazine. Works exactly the same.
mr. rayburn- i'm just curious what you see in the pictures to know its not a mt mag, it looks 3 line to me. what about the pic of the muzzle, should it be in the white? thanks again for sharing your knowledge on colt 22s
 

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mr. rayburn- i'm just curious what you see in the pictures to know its not a mt mag, it looks 3 line to me. what about the pic of the muzzle, should it be in the white? thanks again for sharing your knowledge on colt 22s
I couldn't tell from the photos if it has a two line or three line baseplate, but in the left profile view of the magazine (3rd picture) I can see that the front edge of the baseplate is slanted from top-forward to bottom-aft. The 1st series MT mag is slanted in the opposite direction, from top-aft to bottom forward. To use a map analogy, the regular mag leading edge, viewed from the left profile as in the photo, is NW to SE (like a backslash), while the MT mag leading edge is NE to SW (like a forward slash).

The purpose of the reversed slant is to provide a little more finger room when removing the magazine with the wrap around elephant ear grips installed, and that is the only actual difference other than the Match Target identifying markings.
 

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When I first saw the price, I thought, "Heck, a Match Target magazine is worth about half of that price!" As Mr. Rayburn points out, that is not to be. The major modifications obviously seriously damage the market value, but the gun would seem to be worth what you paid.

As far as repair of the stocks, I do not know whether Swamprat, the resident checkering restoration expert, does that kind of work or not. I have had great success in using epoxy to repair cracks in stocks and would use that to repair these stocks. I would thoroughly degrease the stocks, spread the crack a bit to get more room to apply the epoxy and then squeeze the crack shut as much as possible while the epoxy cured. I would mix walnut dust in the epoxy so that any part of the crack that cannot be closed will be camouflaged by the walnut content in the epoxy. Applying stain to the bare wood and crack line will also help camouflage the crack. Using a fine Sharpie to add a few random "wood grain" streaks in the front strap area can further camouflage the crack. Follow with a True Oil finish and the crack should be nearly invisible.
 

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I have had great success in using epoxy to repair cracks in stocks.....I would mix walnut dust in the epoxy so that any part of the crack that cannot be closed will be camouflaged by the walnut content in the epoxy.... Applying stain to the bare wood and crack line will also help camouflage the crack.
That's a great tip, Judge, thanks!
 

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I couldn't tell from the photos if it has a two line or three line baseplate

i just looked at the pics on a computer with a bigger monitor and it does appear to be 2 line. that was the only difference i knew. i'm still trying to learn about the 1st series, as i'm interested in owning one someday. its hard to tell in the muzzle pic if its blued or not, but wouldn't a blued muzzle be a sign of a re-blue? i nearly bought one of these at the last gun show i was at, but passed because the muzzle was blued and the 2 others at the same show were in the white.

When I first saw the price, I thought, "Heck, a Match Target magazine is worth about half of that price!"
the mt i almost bought and mentioned above, did not have the correct mag. while i was walking around pondering the purchase, i came across a booth with a bunch of magazines. i knew it was a long shot but after a few minutes he dug out a correct 3 line mag. i figured even if i didn't buy this gun, there was a good chance i may need this mag someday anyway. i can't remember exactly but i think i gave $260 for it. it was my only purchase that day, but i was just as happy leaving as i would have been buying a gun.
 

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i just looked at the pics on a computer with a bigger monitor and it does appear to be 2 line. that was the only difference i knew. i'm still trying to learn about the 1st series, as i'm interested in owning one someday. its hard to tell in the muzzle pic if its blued or not, but wouldn't a blued muzzle be a sign of a re-blue? i nearly bought one of these at the last gun show i was at, but passed because the muzzle was blued and the 2 others at the same show were in the white.
I forgot to comment on the white muzzle in my previous post. I did not notice it myself. Very observant, crc1514! I learned long ago to never say never and never say always when discussing what Colt's might have done. I will say that I cannot remember ever seeing a blue nosed 1st Match Target barrel that was not reblued.

the mt i almost bought and mentioned above, did not have the correct mag. while i was walking around pondering the purchase, i came across a booth with a bunch of magazines. i knew it was a long shot but after a few minutes he dug out a correct 3 line mag. i figured even if i didn't buy this gun, there was a good chance i may need this mag someday anyway. i can't remember exactly but i think i gave $260 for it. it was my only purchase that day, but i was just as happy leaving as i would have been buying a gun.
Good find.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Given the info in this thread, what do you guys think I should do? Obviously, the gun's description doesn't tell anything about these issues and I was not aware of what you guys know about these. Apparently I should have did more reading than I have on this model. I never owned one, and so this has been a good learning experience. I focused on the low price too much, but I also didn't see and didn't know what you guys knew. I felt the gun had great potential, instead of simply a pile of issues (some permanent). Sometimes (usually) when its too good to be true, it isn't.

So all is not lost. They do have a return policy. What should I do about this one? Take a complete refund? They do charge a 20% restocking fee ($180). Should I ask for a partial refund given the issues? If so, how much of one is fair given the problems that this gun has? I'm thinking a partial refund is fair to us both, but what do you guys think?

Although this thread has been a bitter pill overall, it was also a good learning experience and I appreciate all of the input and guidance from you all.
 

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Keep the gun and shoot it. The negative issues just aren't all that big a deal unless you wanted a collectible gun and you knew it wasn't that when you bid. I'd take that nice old Colt out and rip up some pop cans or punch some paper this weekend and I bet you forget all about the "return policy." As always, JMHO.
 

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I do not know if you could have done enough reading to recognize all of the issues. One has to see a lot of these guns to have the issues of this one jump out at one. Some, like the crack in the stocks, are obvious, but others, like the screw in the trigger guard or the rear sight, may not be recognized as a modification.

If you want a Pre-War Match Target just to shoot, then this one is less expensive than most. If you want a correct collector's piece, then this is not the one. The restocking fee makes the decision tough, and costly. I would try to get a partial refund due to the unmentioned modifications. I would try for $200, but would accept what I could get because of the costly restocking fee. As an alternative, demand a full refund due to the unmentioned modifications.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The negative issues just aren't all that big a deal unless you wanted a collectible gun and you knew it wasn't that when you bid.
I did actually want a collectible, that was all correct, just with a little finish wear. In other words, a good entry grade specimen. Apparently I was right, if you look at the gun as I did when I bid, that the mag was correct (I couldn't tell the difference the way Rayburn did, but now I know), grips that need a repair but are the correct type, original finish with some rust that could be cleaned up (now it may not be afterall), a replaced rear sight (not the end of the world), etc. in other words, it was a good specimen for what I paid. Now that we see there are extensive mods, the price/value is an issue. I think a partial refund is in order due to what you mentioned, that it would be a great functioning piece at the least however it not being correct.

The restocking fee makes the decision tough, and costly. I would try to get a partial refund due to the unmentioned modifications. I would try for $200, but would accept what I could get because of the costly restocking fee.
I agree completely. Hopefully they will be understanding. I took a chance on this one, and it more or less blew up in my face. I did wonder why no one bid against me on it, and now I know :p
 

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I did actually want a collectible, that was all correct, just with a little finish wear. In other words, a good entry grade specimen. Apparently I was right, if you look at the gun as I did when I bid, that the mag was correct (I couldn't tell the difference the way Rayburn did, but now I know), grips that need a repair but are the correct type, original finish with some rust that could be cleaned up (now it may not be afterall), a replaced rear sight (not the end of the world), etc. in other words, it was a good specimen for what I paid. Now that we see there are extensive mods, the price/value is an issue. I think a partial refund is in order due to what you mentioned, that it would be a great functioning piece at the least however it not being correct.



I agree completely. Hopefully they will be understanding. I took a chance on this one, and it more or less blew up in my face. I did wonder why no one bid against me on it, and now I know :p
Have you received it yet? If so, check the serial number inside the slide and the width of the rear sight dovetail. If it is a mismatched slide then the seller should have recognized it as a parts gun and should have mentioned it.

From the photos it is hard to tell if the muzzle is actually blued, or just dark lighting. If it is blued, then check VERY carefully for other signs, like small dings or pits that are under the blue and all the other usual suspects. If it is, in fact, a reblued parts gun, then you have good cause to request a complete refund, with no restocking fee. A seller with an A+ rating, a feedback score of 5563, and "a traditional Retail Gun Store since 1959" certainly should have known, and should have mentioned it. The screw in the trigger guard and the replacement rear sight further strengthen your argument.

There is something else that looks strange near the muzzle. Copy and paste photo follows:



Notice what appears to be a white ring around the underside of the barrel near the muzzle. I think that bears further investigation.
 

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While I agree the potential re-blue issue would constitute grounds for return, the sight and screw in the triggerguard are clearly pictured. That ring at the muzzle is odd. If it hasn't shipped yet you might call them and discuss it before it does. Could save some bad feelings.

But on the bright side, for $900 you have a really fun shooter with period correct aftermarket parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
While I agree the potential re-blue issue would constitute grounds for return, the sight and screw in the triggerguard are clearly pictured.
The rear sight, crack in the grips and the triggerguard screw are all well pictured. Had the seller knew about the screw, it should have been discussed in the ad. He most likely took the photo to show the wear present only in that area. Even if he says he pictured the screw addition and that it was obvious, there are still other problems. Possible replaced slide, a less valuable replaced magazine, possible reblue, issue with barrel at muzzle (scoring?). I am confident he will hear me out. In these scenarios, its less frequently the content of the exchange, but rather the manner in which its spoken. Tone, word choice, humility, empathy etc are all things that can be used to make any convo easy and pleasant. Of course, these things can be used wrongly which results in a bad situation. I am paying for this one in full, getting the gun, and then calling him. And going from there.
 

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If the slide is replaced or it is a re-blue go for the full refund. Otherwise, as I stated before, I'd keep it and shoot it. The other problems were shown in the pictures whether discussed in the discription or not. It does not seem like there was any attempt at deception on the seller's part. That is a good price on a nice shooter grade Pre-War MT. As always, JMHO. Good luck and I hope this can be resolved to your satisfaction.
 
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