[ronthom]

Here is a Mexican Navy 1911A1 that I acquired about 25 years ago. A reliable source said that it probably went to Mexico with one of the destroyers we provided to them. The destroyers were a "turn key" sale with accessories included (inclusive of small arms). Less authoritatively, a story goes that a Mexican Navy officer sold a sea bag of these to a California dealer. If anyone has any info on these 1911s, please advise me. Regards, Ron






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[Jarhead6153]

Pretty cool 1911...

 

[BearBio]

I heard we sent a bunch of tanks to Russia under Lend-Lease, complete with Thompsons. But no ammo, so they put them away somewhere.

 

[ussmanlovede36]

I didn't know Mexico had a navy. I do like that Colt 45 with Mexico naval markings. Should make it a rare pistol.

 

[dogface6]

Oh, we sent the Russians the ammunition, too - and plenty of it - along with Airacobras, and food of 'all' varieties.

They organized several all-Sherman tank battalions, and fought them well, and they loved those Airacobras because they were superlative tank-busters - that 37mm nose cannon and slow speed was deadly to the thinner top armor found on most armored stuff then and now, but you just don't see photos of non-Russian war materiel in action, because of the post-WWII Soviet propaganda effort.

As to the tale of that Mexican Officer selling to a 'California Dealer'...

If it's who I'm thinking of, that dealer had a decided penchant for 'enhancing' his wares - to include artfully marking them with seals/crests they'd never had when they'd left their factories - and he was highly active in the time frame you refer to.

Given that .45ACP was the military caliber of Mexico, and possessing same was a Federal crime - Mexican jails being what they are, it was a pretty safe bet that any piece in that caliber would be impossible to verify then, as well as now - it's only surprising to me that we don't see more of them, because as I understood it, that sea bag was pretty elastic...

 

[ronthom]

Oh, we sent the Russians the ammunition, too - and plenty of it - along with Airacobras, and .....As to the tale of that Mexican Officer selling to a 'California Dealer'...

If it's who I'm thinking of, that dealer had a decided penchant for 'enhancing' his wares - to include artfully marking them with seals/crests they'd never had when they'd left their factories - and he was highly active in the time frame you refer to.

I am quite sure you are right as to who was selling these at that time - yes, it is well established that he was less than scrupulous. Having said that, given the price at that time I would not expect that anyone in this country would have roll engraved the slides for the piddling profit offered. The holster appears similar to other Mexican Naval holsters I've seen pictured. But who knows? Regards, Ron

 

[dogface6]

You're exactly right, and in many cases, the profit margin is low - but there 'is' a profit - and anyone who would unit-mark a Webley Mk VI with hand-stamps would do this.

Once they start, it's like they can't stop.

Who made the holster - is there a marking on the reverse?

 

[USSOKC]

I find it odd that the small arms went with the ship, "turn key" as you describe it. Hopefully, your pistol is not one that "california collector" worked his magic on.

 

[azshot]

We helped the USSR quite a bit the first few years of the war with food, ammo, weapons systems and more. Millions of dollars worth, because basically they were taking the heat of fighting the Nazis, which other than North Africa, we weren't.

Yes, we sold old US warships to Mexico, and still do. And other countries. One of my old ships was in the Turkish navy for a while. But I don't know why we would let them have the small arms. That sounds like a true Sea Story.

 

[ronthom]

I find it odd that the small arms went with the ship, "turn key" as you describe it. Hopefully, your pistol is not one that "california collector" worked his magic on.

I never directly quote a well known person w/o their permission. But, let me assure you that the story on "turn key" destroyers w/arms racks filled is from the best 1911 source imaginable. Absolutely no discernable markings on on the holster. Regards, Ron

P.S. I still believe there is a major endeavor difference between a "flat" stamp and a roll engraving. With anything less than industrial equipment, roll engraving does not strike me as feasible, particularly when we are talking about a number of these guns. I would expect such a forgery to be accomplished by relatively cheap labor hand engraving it. The gun was bought well after the concerned individual was widely identified - I and several collector friends looked very closely at it during the inspection period. While the unnamed individual perpetrated multiple frauds, all the guns he sold were not bogus - he was a functioning (dysfunctioning?) major used gun dealer.

 

[CWO4USCGRET]

When I was on the Coast Guard Cutter VENTUROUS (home-ported in LA) we used to operate south of the CA-MX Border - and out to sea. One bust we had was approximately 600 nautical miles west southwest of San Diego. We recovered over 3,000 Lbs. of bulk Thai marijuana; made 3 arrests, and seized a beautiful Choy Lee (Taiwan Builder) 49' Ketch. It was a "by the book" boarding and arrests - solid convictions all around.

We "cooperated" with the Armada de Mexico (Mexican Navy) even did some ops with one of their ships. It was an old WWII US Navy Ocean Going Minesweeper converted to a patrol boat. When we went into Ensenada one time we hosted the Navy Admiral in charge of that coastal area of Mexico - from Tijuana south to Cabo. Not that he was old or anything but I think he had close to 60 years in the Mexican Navy - the infrastructure and equipment of the Mexican Navy was equally old. In one port call at Puerto Vallarta we were challenged to a basketball game with the MX Navy. Even with me in the game it was too easy; at the half our CO told us to ease up, let them in the game. They figured it out very early and were pissed. Their CO chatted with our CO and we resumed the pasting. Of course payback was on the soccer field; we did manage to score a goal (to their 4 or 5) they did not cut as any slack - nor did we wimp out; we tried but the pitch was almost like playing on cement - hard, gravelly clay, dried in the summer sun! No sliding tackles! This was during the 1985-88 time frame; in 2000 - 2001 I spent my final two years on the MOHAWK home-ported in Key West. We were the first US Naval "Combatant" to enter Vera Cruz, Mexico; you know "The Halls of Montezuma" fame. Across the pier from us was a very modern up-to-date patrol boat and every morning, in a display to show off, two deuce and a halfs with a platoon of Mexican Marines would do a slow drive-by of the cutter. Their uniforms were modern, well maintained, and the Mexican Marines looked like lean, mean, fighting machines - definitely not the stereotypical sort that were parodied in the 60s and 70s in the movies.

I've been to Mexico City in 2004 and 2005; the Mexican Military is a sharp looking group with modern equipment. Outside of Acapulco we were stopped at a checkpoint manned by the Marines; Ma Deuces, sand bags, and Humvees at the ready. A cousin of my wife is married to a pilot in the Mexican Air Force, at the Air Base in Acapulco they were flying "crop dusting" missions with Bell Jet Rangers, supported by Pilatus PC-9 Ground Attack aircraft:

I know, first hand, that several of Mexico's most vicious cartels were started by police and military personnel but for the most part today their military looks good with modern equipment and fit and trim members.

Oh yeah - a beautiful 1911!

 

[dogface6]

Roll-marking doesn't take all that much to accomplish, and it's done with a die, not by engraving - 'just' like the factory would have done.

Back when Winchester was selling off a 'lot' of their stuff, I knew a guy who bought a number of their barrel dies for rare, or hard-to-find calibers, along with a number of other interesting things.

For several years, if you were looking for a brand-new pre-'64 barrel for your Model 70 in .22 Hornet, or something more exotic - he'd tell you he 'knew a guy' and could find you one - then he'd fixture it up on a new barrel blank, and suddenly you'd be writing a check.

He was a whiz with re-welding and re-machining cut, demilitarized receivers of .45s, Garands and Carbines as well.

The dealer in question didn't do his nefarious 'work' personally - someone did it for him - but that someone's name has never 'really' come up.

 

[Armybrat]

When I was on the Coast Guard Cutter VENTUROUS (home-ported in LA) we used to operate south of the CA-MX Border - and out to sea. One bust we had was approximately 600 nautical miles west southwest of San Diego. We recovered over 3,000 Lbs. of bulk Thai marijuana; made 3 arrests, and seized a beautiful Choy Lee (Taiwan Builder) 49' Ketch. It was a "by the book" boarding and arrests - solid convictions all around.

We "cooperated" with the Armada de Mexico (Mexican Navy) even did some ops with one of their ships. It was an old WWII US Navy Ocean Going Minesweeper converted to a patrol boat. When we went into Ensenada one time we hosted the Navy Admiral in charge of that coastal area of Mexico - from Tijuana south to Cabo. Not that he was old or anything but I think he had close to 60 years in the Mexican Navy - the infrastructure and equipment of the Mexican Navy was equally old. In one port call at Puerto Vallarta we were challenged to a basketball game with the MX Navy. Even with me in the game it was too easy; at the half our CO told us to ease up, let them in the game. They figured it out very early and were pissed. Their CO chatted with our CO and we resumed the pasting. Of course payback was on the soccer field; we did manage to score a goal (to their 4 or 5) they did not cut as any slack - nor did we wimp out; we tried but the pitch was almost like playing on cement - hard, gravelly clay, dried in the summer sun! No sliding tackles! This was during the 1985-88 time frame; in 2000 - 2001 I spent my final two years on the MOHAWK home-ported in Key West. We were the first US Naval "Combatant" to enter Vera Cruz, Mexico; you know "The Halls of Montezuma" fame. Across the pier from us was a very modern up-to-date patrol boat and every morning, in a display to show off, two deuce and a halfs with a platoon of Mexican Marines would do a slow drive-by of the cutter. Their uniforms were modern, well maintained, and the Mexican Marines looked like lean, mean, fighting machines - definitely not the stereotypical sort that were parodied in the 60s and 70s in the movies.

I've been to Mexico City in 2004 and 2005; the Mexican Military is a sharp looking group with modern equipment. Outside of Acapulco we were stopped at a checkpoint manned by the Marines; Ma Deuces, sand bags, and Humvees at the ready. A cousin of my wife is married to a pilot in the Mexican Air Force, at the Air Base in Acapulco they were flying "crop dusting" missions with Bell Jet Rangers, supported by Pilatus PC-9 Ground Attack aircraft:



I know, first hand, that several of Mexico's most vicious cartels were started by police and military personnel but for the most part today their military looks good with modern equipment and fit and trim members.

Oh yeah - a beautiful 1911!

They've apparently come a long way. When I lived in Monterrey, Mexico in the early 1960s, the army units I saw were armed with Mausers and their border police with 1911s.

 

[ronthom]

I think it is appropriate that I add to my initial post inre the "Mexican Navy" Remington Rand. I'll give the abbreviated version of the apparent background of this 1911A1. Some years ago I was talking with Charles Clawson and asked him to research the origins of this 1911A1. He asked more or less: "why should I do so?" and I replied that he being the 1911 authority there should be more info on this variant than his: "probably was on one of the naval vessels transferred to Mexico" description. He replied that he would give it some thought. Unfortunately, I spoke no further with Charles about this gun. Some years later following the initiation of this thread I was put in touch with a Waco, Tx collector who happened to be a close personal friend of C. Clawson. Several years earlier he came upon a similar 1911A1 for sale at a high price in Waco. He contacted C. Clawson who told him that the Mexican Navy 1911A1s in question were prepared as part of a sales pitch to representatives of the Mexican Navy who were coming to the U.S. in later 1944. In that the Mexican Government chose to not contract the pistols, the several "Armada de Mexico" crested pistols never left the United States. It appears C Clawson had gotten in touch with a former Remington employee who knew something of the project in the intervening interval. Since I spoke with the Waco collector a third example seems to have surfaced.

I have compared the stamping on my 1911A1 with the Waco example and found them absolutely identical. Further information and the Waco gun is available on the "Collecting Texas" website (item OHG8). I might note that I have no affiliation with said website other than conversing a couple of times with the owner. I have initiated this post to clarify what may well be a scarce and interesting 1911A1 variant; all of the information I have put forward is accurate as presented to me and submitted in good faith. My copy of the Mexican Navy 1911A1 is not for sale. Regards, Ron

 

[dkay62]

This is a wonderful 1911. Very Cool. Thanks for sharing.

 

[topduarte]

I would buy the one you mentioned but $15k is out of my price range. It would be a nice gun to have though.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Mike Faires]

Interesting gun but by my research bogus. Mexico did buy around 4500 1911/1911A1'as from the factory according to Clawson. They were however all commercial models from the factory and thus had the C serial number. Also they were roll marked "Ejercito Mexico" not "Armada Mexico". So got to throw the BS flag on this one.

 

[topduarte]

Which is BS, The Armada Mexico one?????

 

[Mike Faires]

The one in the pictures with the military 1911A1 serial number and the top of the slide "Armada" marking. According to Clawson.

 

[davevall]

Very nice!!