Colt Forum banner

Nice Square butt Detective Special for sale

6K views 46 replies 15 participants last post by  Arizona Bill 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Hey Twaits, refresh my memory, didn't the "X" on the frame under the serial number indicate a return to the Colt factory for work or am I thinking of some other anomoly that gets all jumbled in my head? I swear I'm getting more "I used to know these things and now I don't" moments as the months progress :)
 
#6 ·
As someone who has done a considerable amount of US Cavalry reenacting, I'm almost certain those are crossed cavalry sabers. The tips are to the left, the hilts to the right. It'll take someone with more knowledge than I have to explain sabers on a DS, but that's what they are. I can't wait to find out if someone knows why on earth they're there!
Metal Brass Steel Pipe
 
#7 ·
As someone who has done a considerable amount of US Cavalry reenacting, I'm almost certain those are crossed cavalry sabers. The tips are to the left, the hilts to the right. It'll take someone with more knowledge than I have to explain sabers on a DS, but that's what they are. I can't wait to find out if someone knows why on earth they're there!
I went back to the auction and sure enough it does appear to be crossed sabers. Not only that but it has the "T" which typically indicates targeted. So maybe a calvary/military connection? Interesting speculation on a square butt, indeed.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Arizona Bill, great observation!! Just to add to the discussion here are pictures of my DS SN 472416 that is parkerized. I purchased it in hopes that it may have been a gun acquired by the US Gov't at the beginning of WW-2. It has the 'possible' crossed sabers, also. I have 'blown it up' as much as possible and even added 'white-out' into the numbers and the sabers.
Since this gun is >70,000 later, the die that was used may have been 'worn' quite a bit.
I have a request sent to Colt Historical for a letter. I will post that information when I receive it.





 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
I don't think yours is a military contract DS. It could be a marking to distinguish an arsenal refinish ,maybe to parkerize (just a thought)? This is a round butt and the U.S. Government specified a square butt configuration.On the letters from what I understand, the early U.S. government DS letters can have it noted in the ledgers identifing "furnished with square butt configuaration" but as the war progressd and orders became standardized, that entry isn't listed as that was a given concerning U.S. Government procured DS's. Ron
 
#11 ·
Arizona Bill, If these are US markings, I certainly hope one of the Forum members buys that Sq Butt gun on GB. Also, I think your discovery will turn out to be quite significant. I am glad you saw this. I hope kwill sees this. He has gathered quite a bit of information on such guns. In fact, I will PM him now.
 
#13 ·
Ronald12, I fully understand your reservation about a round butt Detective Special being procured by the Government. I have followed your excellent threads on this subject and I have read Peer's book that backs your premise. I have also enjoyed interactions with Kwill who has made quite a few literary contributions in this area. His contributions also back your premise.
My personal experience from working almost 30 years with the US Government tells me that many strange things can happen during large government procurement cycles. I was involved with many. Quite often vendors will send in samples for evaluation and often those samples can become part of deliverables. I would not find it strange for one of the preliminary procurement cycles that the US Gov't initiated leading up to WW-2 for Colt to have supplied some of the round butt guns for evaluation by the procuring organization. Such items would typically never be returned to the vendor and might become part of the Gov't arsenal.
Just like we have all heard about Colt, "Never say never," I will add from my Government procurement experience to also "never say never." Strange things happen in those procurements.
I am pleased that Arizona Bill was preceptive enough to have spotted what may be 'crossed sabers' on the square butt DS that is on GB. When I saw the Thread, I recalled seeing something similar on the round butt DS I own. I am trying to recall if I have seen a large "X" on any of my other Colts, but none come to mind. Maybe this Thread will generate some inputs where other members have seen this marking.
In the meantime, I will 'keep my fingers crossed' that I will get a Colt Letter that indicates my DS might have some Gov't connection. If it does, that will be great and if it doesn't, that will be interesting.
 
#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
I agree also. It could turn out to be another variation on Colt revolvers. If it is , I am sure there will be a dash to look at the Colts!
Concerning the round butts, there was a very very small run identified to the USMC.The link to the USMC round butt is listed below. Notice only 6 were ordered. It does not list any pics of the crane, so we don't know what kind of markings it has. Yours is close in serial number range. It would be a great find if it was one of the prototypes, but I doubt it. I would vote that is mark to denote refinish. The British also has a cross sword ordnance stamp but somewhat different. Wonder if it could be a lend lease DS? Anything is possible, but until you get the letter, it is all speculation. Even then. a letter may not go into that detail. But in the course of this thread , I will limit my post to the square butt configuration. Ron


http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot....cial&lso=timeleftasc&pagenum=1&lang=En#images
 
#16 ·
Parrisjr & Ronald12; It is always nice to have hope! My odds are better than winning a Lottery. I would not know anything about such guns if it were not for the people on the Forum. I figure my odds at 1 in 5,000. I bought the gun because of the serial number range. It has definitely been redone by an arsenal or someone. It has seen lots of use. That sounds like the USMC.
It is great to be a member of the Forum.
 
#17 ·
I have my wonderful stable of D.S. Snubbies,my 1968 D.S. that was my instructors BUG and Off Duty, a 1971 Nickle D.S. that I picked up for 325 dollars due to bad pictures and the finish was perfect, and a 1960 Cobra.If there was no Mrs CRN gun ban this one with the square butt would be mine.I hope a Forum member gets it
 
#19 ·
Well, since I've been called out--ON CHRISTMAS DAY--I guess I should respond. ;)

First of all, I'm quite skeptical of that 'X' being anything other than an 'X.' It is the final acceptance mark and I think it went on just before the gun was proof fired and stamped with the VP.

Secondly, there was a small batch of round butt guns that went to the Navy--10, as I recall--so it's possible that 472416 is one of those. Or not.

With all due respect I would discourage speculation about "arsenal refinish" or lend-lease possibilities. The LL option is really far-fetched. That's how internet rumors get started. :cool:

Sorry if I'm sounding like the Grinch. I've got my fingers crossed that 472416 is a rare Navy revolver.

Merry Christmas,
Kevin Williams
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
I think you are referring to my comment. I in no way wanted or intended to start an"internet rumor". It was merely thinking out loud. All I said was, the British has a proof with cross swords. I did not (and if it was taken that way, I apologize) want folks to think this was a lend lease revolver. As far as a refinish, the square butt DS in the govenment serial range were blue and since this has a round butt and is parkerized , that is what led me to believe the refinish comment. I regret my comments caused the concern.
From now, I will refrain from making comments or providing advice.:( I will leave it to the experts who know more than I do. I won't post links to revolvers either.
Ron
 
#31 ·
Ron, As for me, I appreciated your comments. I did look up the British Crossed Sword proof and found that their proof has both swords pointing upwards. I think Arizona Bill pointed out that the gun on GB has the swords pointed to the left. In looking very closely at that picture, I too, believe they are crossed swords and not just an X. Kevin has, by far, more expertise on these items than I could ever hope to have, so my comment is 'just my comment.' As Arizona Bill and I discussed, the X or crossed swords on my gun is difficult to call either 'crossed swords or an X' due to possible die wear.
In the end, I expect Kevin's opinion will be upheld (by letter on my gun from Colt), but I see enough anomalies regarding the 'crossed swords' to make me wonder if they are just a big 'X.'
 
#21 ·
Kevin, the die mark on Saintclair's revolver is rather faint, and one might well have a gentleman's disagreement about its meaning. However, here's an enlarged and sharpened shot of the other DS marking with a copy of a drawing of US Cavalry sabers I pulled from the internet and superimposed below it. If I'm wrong, I'll happily stand corrected, but I respectfully suggest that this identical match-up cannot be a coincidence.

Font
 
#22 ·
I should have kept my mouth shut. Ron, it was never my intent to offend you but clearly I have. Please accept my apology.AZBill, I see the similarity but such a mark is unknown to me. I claim no expertise; just never seen it before. However, the X as a final acceptance stamp is well known and fairly common. Perhaps I'm too conservative.
 
#25 ·
What the Brits used was a pair of crossed 'Lances w/Pennants'.

Americans never used 'Crossed Sabers' in acceptance - nor did they use 'Crossed Rifles' or 'Crossed Cannon' as those are Branch devices.

If the weapon is proofed - said markings are visible on the frame for one and all to see.

The 'X' marking is likely 'just' an inspector's marking, made with a stronger, deeper strike to one side, with a helping of wishful thinking added.
 
#26 ·
I also believe the symbol is simply an acceptance mark. Where others are seeing "sabers" I only see an "X". I have several pre-war guns with the "X" inspection mark and have seen enough of them to believe it was a common marking done by Colt. Ironically, one of my "X" marked guns is a Railway Mail Service Bankers Special which was shipped to Springfield Armory and bears the stamp of the Army Ordnance Inspector Lt. Col. George A. Woody on the trigger guard.

Here's a pic of another one of my guns (a round butt pre-war Detective) with the "X" marking.

 
#29 ·
I also think the marking is merely an X.

There were at least half a dozen round butt commercially finished pre war Detective Specials that lettered to the USMC, c/o K St. in Wash. D.C. I think they were for couriers or messengers.
One sold north of 5K last year. I sure wish I'd had the money to bid on that one.

Very interesting thread, gents!

S/F,
Mike
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top