[256M-S]

OrdnanceGuy,

Reference your photo of the Colt's 1909 and it's pistol belt in the photograph under the topic of possible orginal 1909 boxes, could you identify the belt with the integral ctg pouches?

Are the pouches made for individual ctgs or for holding half moon clips? Was this part of the gear specifically related to the M1909 or to 38 revolvers of the same rough period? I'd be interested in anything you know about the belt to include any maker or model stampings.

Nice kit.

Thanks.



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"And the blithe revolver began to sing/ To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring..."

 

[ordnanceguy]

256: Yes, the belt was designed especialy for use with the M1909 revolver. It did not use half moon clips. I am at work now, but I'll dig out my references at home tonight and post more info for you on this belt then.

Charlie

 

[256M-S]

Thanks, I've never seen that particular belt and am really curious. Have one of the old 1910 Webs with the US buckle and the Mills 03 ammo pouches with the US Buttons, but haven't seen the belt with integral cartridge pouches.

 

[ordnanceguy]

256: The pistol belt in question is known as the "Cartridge Belt, Revolver, Model of 1910" as described in the Army's Manual entitled Description of Infantry Equipment Model of 1910. It was designed specifically for the Model of 1909 Revolver. The pockets were designed to hold 5 rounds each of .45 ammo, not in clips. The fasteners are nickeled rimless Eagle Snaps. The belts are unmarked, except for occasional unit markings, but are believed to have been made by Russell, a prominent maker of woven military equipment that was a competitor to the better known Mills Equipment Co. Total production amounts are unknown. For more information beyond the aforementioned Manual, take a look at Steve Dorsey's book on US Martial Web Belts. I hope this helps you.

Charlie Flick

 

[256M-S]

Mr. Flick,

Thanks much for the thorough report.

I thought the 1910 web belt had the old US buckle with the the US on a small male oval that locked into a larger female oval. I knew there were variations in buckles but assumed the 2920 belt was a rifle ctg belt.

Really interesting to see the integral pouches for revolver ctgs and also interesting that they were for 5 and not 6. Do you know if this pistol belt was unique to cavalry or to officers in the Infantry?

I suppose the 5 rd pouch capacity is a holdover from the SAA since I don't think the Army ever required that DA revolvers be carried with hammer down on empty chamber.

Nice looking holster, by the way. Hard to find them down here in the South that aren't cracked and dry rotted.

Thanks also for the reference on belts and the FM on kit. I'll look for one...I've a fairly extensive library, but surely never thought about owning a separate reference on belts, but it would be interesting.

I'm interested in the cartridge pouches. I remember in the 1960's and '70's and even later how difficult it was to find issue 1911 magazine pouches at Bragg or in RVN. The system issued the horizontal first aid pouches in which to carry magazines and I ended up buying about 20 or more 1911 pouches from the Old Ranger Joe's in Ft Benning to serve my needs over the years. Same with gaiters to ward of leeches for my teams. Used to carry the mag pouches in my hip pockets and sweat and the humidity of the tropics rotted them out. Went thru a bunch of them. Most all that survive from that initial quantity purchase are like new with WW II stamps and vary in colour from khaki to dark OD. Always thought it bizaare that I had to buy my kit on the Army Surplus store market fm WWII stock...

Cheers

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"And the blithe revolver began to sing/ To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring..."

 

[ordnanceguy]

256:
You said "I thought the 1910 web belt had the old US buckle with the the US on a small male oval that locked into a larger female oval." Actually, the belt you describe with the interlocking US buckle is the Model of 1910 Enlisted Man's Garrison Belt. A similar belt with a fancier buckle was used by officers.


You asked "Do you know if this pistol belt was unique to cavalry or to officers in the Infantry?" The Belt was described as part of the Infantry Equipment, so I'd have to say it was infantry. It does not show up in the contemporary Cavalry Equipment Manual. Note, however, that Dorsey observed that some of the extant belts today show cavalry and artillery unit markings. It was used by anyone authorized to carry the Revolver, so that would typically be officers and NCOs.

You mentioned "Nice looking holster, by the way. Hard to find them down here in the South that aren't cracked and dry rotted." Agreed. The holster I pictured is the Model of 1909 and is much harder to find than the Revolver is these days, in my experience. The M1909s that were manufactured in WW1 are fairly commonplace, but have WW1 dates and were not made by RIA as the earlier ones were.


That is a sad commentary on our military that you had to go out and buy your own web gear. I hope our soldiers today are getting a better break than you experienced.

An interesting topic. Nice talking with you.

Charlie Flick

 

[256M-S]

Mr. Flick,

Thanks for the information. Clarified a few points that my few uniform ref's don't show.

One more clarification,if you don't mind. When you describe the US buckle as belonging to the "garrison belt", my belt and buckle came originally with the web belt and the 5 round cartridge pouches with the eagle buckles. I wouldn't have thought a garrison belt would have had the ammo pouches, though they could obviously have been added for whatever reasons.

Also, IF I remember correctly the Officer's buckle was the same as enlisted buckle except the Officer's buckle was brass and the enlisted buckle bronze or something similar. Is that your understanding?

I also can't find my belt to chk any markings on it and to verify whether it had one or two integral rifle pouches or not--if you saw what my twins called my war room, you'd understand how easy that can be at any given time.


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"And the blithe revolver began to sing/ To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring..."

 

[ordnanceguy]

256: Just saw your message, and once again I'm at work without my references, but I'll try to answer your questions without them.
The Enlisted Man's garrison belt was intended to be issued with two 5-round pouches for the .30-06 cartridge for the M1903 Springfield Rifle. The early ones had eagle snaps (rimmed or unrimmed) and the later ones had Lift-The-Dot fasteners. Keeping in mind what garrison duty was all about, these belts were used typically for guard duty and, thus, there was no need for additional ammo carriage, FAK, or canteen. A web belt slide with 2 grommets was also typically used to allow for carrying the M1905 bayonet in the M1910 scabbard.

Concerning the buckle, both officers and enlisted were made of the same blackened bronze material and had the same dimensions. However, the officer's buckle had a US eagle in the center surrounded by a wreath of acanthus leaves on the outside. It was much showier. Officer's belts typically did not have provision for the ammo pouches or bayonet (officers were not usually armed with the rifle), but there was a slide to mount the Mills webbed holster for the .45 M1911 (or the Model of 1912 holster) and a web hanger for carrying the sword.

There were other versions of the enlisted belt distinguished primarily by what was put on the belt. As I recall there was a bandsman version, one for HQ troops, one for senior NCOs and so on. These are all described in the contemporary Army manual, in the Mills catalogs of the era, and in Dorsey's belt book mentioned previously. I hope this discussion answers your questions on these interesting accoutrements.

Charlie Flick

 

[256M-S]

Outstanding. Thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate it. Makes sense. I've clearly got the garrison belt---NOW, I've got to find where it's tucked away. Also has my assortment of GI web 1911 mag pouches. You've obviously got a wealth of knowledge on the kit of the period. Thanks for sharing it and putting up with my repetitive questioning.

Are you by chance going to the FT MYERS show this weekend? I may go on Saturday. Be happy to buy a gunshow meal if that doesn't sound more like punishment than reward.

Cheers.


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"And the blithe revolver began to sing/ To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring..."

 

[ordnanceguy]

256: You are most welcome. Glad to help.

No, I won't be at Ft. Myers on Sat. Got a conflict. I will be helping a buddy of mine man his table on Sunday at the American Legion Hall gun show in Fort Lauderdale.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[256M-S]

Well, good luck. Haven't been there in a while, but the couple of times I have been it was always a small but pleasant show. The Legion is a good organization for gun folks to support.

Perhaps another link up one of these days.

Cheers.

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"And the blithe revolver began to sing/ To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring..."

 

[diamonback68]

What Ft. Myers show? Where? You mean I missed one? Where?

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Dick

There is a word sweeter than mother, home or heaven--
That word is Liberty.

 

[256M-S]

Sorry for misinfo, Diamondback.

The show is in FT PIERCE, NOT Myers. St Lucie Fairgrounds.

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"And the blithe revolver began to sing/ To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring..."