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Ouch ( Another GB Listing for a nice enough old Colt, but with a serious defect...)
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Was scrolling through the pictures trying to figure out what the defect was...until I got down towards the end. Wow....don't see many that have had the serial number ground off! At least for sale
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It can be legal- you can apply to ATFE for a S/N to put on it. You can also possibly get a police lab or somebody to "raise" the S/N- I believe it's done with acid, if I can believe what I see on the CSI-type shows.
§ 478.34
Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]
The revolver shown has had the serial number removed from the crane where it was originally, and a number has been applied to the butt which does not correspond to the service number found there on the Model 1917 Colt revolvers. The fake markings on the butt of the revolver show intent to cover up the fact that they have been removed/obliterated.
How do you explain to the BATF why the serial number is missing? Unless stolen, why would the serial number be removed?
Just not worth the possibility of losing your right to own a legitimate firearm.
Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]
The revolver shown has had the serial number removed from the crane where it was originally, and a number has been applied to the butt which does not correspond to the service number found there on the Model 1917 Colt revolvers. The fake markings on the butt of the revolver show intent to cover up the fact that they have been removed/obliterated.
How do you explain to the BATF why the serial number is missing? Unless stolen, why would the serial number be removed?
Just not worth the possibility of losing your right to own a legitimate firearm.
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Anyone know a place or person who knows how to lift a s/n? I may know a guy....
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On the m1917 Colts, the Number represented on the Butt was not the Colt Serial Number, but the Army Inventory Assignment Number.
It probably would serve without question in most places where Gun Registration is required...the clerks would never know the difference.
But technically, the Revolver in question had had the Serial Number ground away and obliterated, which is a 'No No' under the present Laws.
This can be appealed and a Serial Number assigned and all made Legal, if one were to go through the proper channels and so on, especially as it is an old Gun and that the grinding appears old also.
On the m1917 Smith & Wessons, the Serial Number and the Army Inventory Number on the Butt, were identical.
If Colt had elected to Serial their m1917 Revolvers, starting with "1", ( like S & W did ) then the Army Inventory Assignment Number would have been the same as the Serial Number.
If all you had to do was contact the BATF for a new serial number, everyone would be doing this. Stolen gun? Just remove the serial number and ask the BATF for a new one. The Colt Model 1917 Revolver had the markings applied to the butt to increase it's value as it could not be sold legally without a serial number.
This was from an armchairgunshow.com ad:
Special info on some of the SAA's above - "… documents from Colt & ATF…"
A number of Single Action Armies listed above include the note "with documents from Colt & ATF". My informal understanding is that a fellow had apparently set up something of a cottage industry re-marking modern SAA’s to appear to be antique, to increase their value. Fraud aside, ATF takes a very dim view of altering serial numbers on modern guns, and a number of guns were seized and subjected to detailed inspection, with the altered number guns destroyed after the prosecution.
These remaining guns were recently sold by a pre-eminent auction house, with the following notation:
"The documents included are copies of original documents prepared by the ATF and Colt Manufacturing Company. The ATF, Colt Historical Research Department, and Colt Firearms Control Staff researched each firearm. This was part of an ATF investigation to ensure that each of the firearms were in fact original and not forgeries or renumbered in any way. The facts on the research information sheets are directly from Colt records and Colt Historical Research Department."
The documents usually consist of a diagram of an SAA with researchers’ notes on the markings found on each gun, including occasional comments if a marking appeared bogus, along with basically the same info that would be contained in a factory letter – original configuration, shipping date & destination, and number of guns in shipment. Many also include an evidence hang tag initialed by "J.A.K.", from John A. Kopec, probably the leading expert on martial SAA's in the world, who performed the inspections for Colt & the ATF.
This was from an armchairgunshow.com ad:
Special info on some of the SAA's above - "… documents from Colt & ATF…"
A number of Single Action Armies listed above include the note "with documents from Colt & ATF". My informal understanding is that a fellow had apparently set up something of a cottage industry re-marking modern SAA’s to appear to be antique, to increase their value. Fraud aside, ATF takes a very dim view of altering serial numbers on modern guns, and a number of guns were seized and subjected to detailed inspection, with the altered number guns destroyed after the prosecution.
These remaining guns were recently sold by a pre-eminent auction house, with the following notation:
"The documents included are copies of original documents prepared by the ATF and Colt Manufacturing Company. The ATF, Colt Historical Research Department, and Colt Firearms Control Staff researched each firearm. This was part of an ATF investigation to ensure that each of the firearms were in fact original and not forgeries or renumbered in any way. The facts on the research information sheets are directly from Colt records and Colt Historical Research Department."
The documents usually consist of a diagram of an SAA with researchers’ notes on the markings found on each gun, including occasional comments if a marking appeared bogus, along with basically the same info that would be contained in a factory letter – original configuration, shipping date & destination, and number of guns in shipment. Many also include an evidence hang tag initialed by "J.A.K.", from John A. Kopec, probably the leading expert on martial SAA's in the world, who performed the inspections for Colt & the ATF.
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The BATFE...
may or may not agree to raise a partially or fully obliterated serial number.
Two cases in point, from my own recent experience:
1. FFL transfer of a sporterized M1 carbine, which arrived with all the original government markings completely removed. It was submitted to the Tucson office of BATFE, which (eventually) assigned a new serial number to the piece, and returned it. The transfer was completed.
2. An 1892 Winchester rifle, received as an FFL transfer, arrived with a partially obliterated serial number (excessively polished when re-finished). It was not possible to make-out the original serial number, or even whether it might be a true antique, but was submitted to the same agents for resolution: BATFE refused to raise the original number or issue a new one, so the transfer could not be completed. In this case, I had completely stripped the rifle and sent only the receiver to BATFE, so the owner of this family heirloom was able to retain everything else. The receiver was not returned and, presumably, destroyed.
mhb - Mike
may or may not agree to raise a partially or fully obliterated serial number.
Two cases in point, from my own recent experience:
1. FFL transfer of a sporterized M1 carbine, which arrived with all the original government markings completely removed. It was submitted to the Tucson office of BATFE, which (eventually) assigned a new serial number to the piece, and returned it. The transfer was completed.
2. An 1892 Winchester rifle, received as an FFL transfer, arrived with a partially obliterated serial number (excessively polished when re-finished). It was not possible to make-out the original serial number, or even whether it might be a true antique, but was submitted to the same agents for resolution: BATFE refused to raise the original number or issue a new one, so the transfer could not be completed. In this case, I had completely stripped the rifle and sent only the receiver to BATFE, so the owner of this family heirloom was able to retain everything else. The receiver was not returned and, presumably, destroyed.
mhb - Mike
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The problem is, the number on the butt is not the Army Service number. Ignoring the fact that the "ARMY" and "MODEL" on the butt are not correct, the service number is too high to belong on a M1917, and much higher than would be correct on a "JMG" frame (maximum about 70,000) even if such a number were possible (155,000 maximum). This is a gun, perhaps stolen, that was purposely altered in an attempt to disguise its origins by a rather stupid forger. The ATF will confiscate this gun if they find out about it - no way will they re-serial a gun so obviously marked in a nefarious fashion. Stay away from this one.
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that an FFL will not transfer this gun under the falsified number. Crooked or not, he has plausible deniability. And if he gets found out, he's not out anything unless he's the current owner. I currently have a M1917 that was sold to me using the armory rebuild number as the serial number. However, it does have the real serial number in the appropriate places, so I am not too worried about that.
Buck
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57 Posts
You know, I get that, I really do. I've been a C&R FFL holder for almost 20 years and have owned several 1917s (Colt AND S&W) and have always understood the SN to be in BOTH places. At least they have been on the military models I've owned.
Can't imagine why the yoke SN was damaged, altered, removed, or there at all originally, but stuff happens.
WOULD be hard to explain to BATFE.
Appreciate the review.
Thanks.
Addendum: never mind. Reviewed several earlier posts, and a handful of posted ads for S&W and Colt M1917 revolvers and it makes all kinds of sense now. I'm not a wheeler-dealer high-volume trader, just a collector and I don't get into all the details of which guns have which serial numbers vs. Army ordnance numbers on what part of the frame.
This whole discussion opened up an entirely new world to me regarding these guns and how easily a noob like me could be taken in by someone's BS.
Thank you again for the post-postgraduate education. I needed it.
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