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Discussion Starter #1
Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Appears to be late 1960's mfg with "bull bbl" and shrouded ejector rod ? The frame looks just like a Det Spl of that era . SN D225x . Please let me know date of mfg . The number seems to be in the Diamondback range ? Mr Wilson's "Book of Colt Firearms" shows the last PP non-prefix number in 1966 jumping to D900101 .

Thanks
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Guy, the serial number defintely falls in the Diamondback range and dates to 1966. The shrouded PP ejector rod housing didn't come out 'til about 1977. I suspect the barrel has been changed out on the gun.

------------------
Dick

The watchwords for all mankind are.....Liberty and Freedom.
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Guy do you suspect a rebarrel?

The shrouded ("bull bbl" as you call it) Police Positive Special barrel is from the 1977 & 1978 production PPS. That barrel was not used (at least as far as I know) on 60's guns.

Seems like we have something suspicious going on here.
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Thanks guys .

The finish on both barrel and frame are factory and both like new . Possibly my "bull bbl" description is incorrect . The barrel is round with the ejector shrouded . It doesn't have a full under lug though . Top of barrel is flat with a matte finish .

Barrel reads LH side :

" POLICE POSITIVE " in a larger font than the second line which reads " .38 SPECIAL CTG " in a smaller font .

RH side :

Much smaller font
" Colt's PT.FA.MFG.CO.HARTFORD,CONN.U.S.A.

Anything's possible , but it looks right . With fixed sights , it's definately not a Diamondback frame though . ... Very strange !
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Just for clarification . I am selling it . Not asking big money .

The prospective buyer called Colt and they told him they didn't make a PP with that serial number . The "D" must be a zero they said ... I say that's not right either . How many Colt's have you seen that the serial number started with "0" zero . None here ! A PP with their proposed 0225x number would theoretically have been made in 1910 . That's definately not the case .

Assuming a rebarrel , the number still wouldn't be right . It's a fixed sight frame , not a Diamondback . Very strange .
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Your description of the barrel was just fine. It was clear enough to understand that it is a 1977-1978 PPS barrel. (The full under lug barrel was for the PP MKV made in 1994).

Your description of the markings on the barrel is correct for a PPS 1977-1978.

No matter how you slice it Guy and no matter how right it looks, the barrel and S/N don't match up. I have seen these barrels for sale NOS within the past few years.

At any rate, I'm sure it's a fine looking gun and will make someone a handy shooter.
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

A PPS would have a "service hammer" and didn't all Diamondbacks have target hammers?
Your barrel markings match my '77 PPS.
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Thanks very much for the feedback . I do appreciate it !

Any chance it's a parts clean up ? From what we have discussed , it's a Diamondback serial number . Definately not a Db frame . If anything , it's a Det Spl frame .

I'm not in denial ;>)
It very well could be a re-barrel . I'm just confused about the serial number series on this frame style ??

Thanks !

Mitch

[This message has been edited by guy sajer (edited 02-22-2005).]

[This message has been edited by guy sajer (edited 02-22-2005).]
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Forgive me for interjecting, as you guys have probably forgotten more about Diamondbacks than I know. (But I'm here to learn). One more thought...on the PPS box end label, the Colt model number is D2442. Pretty close to your serial #, any chance the worker stamping frames was off his meds for part of the day?
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Ah,Bushwhacker! "Lunchbox Guns"! One of my favorite areas of Colts. For those who want to know,this was a practice that Colt allowed of employees,probably only the skilled fitters,polishers etc.,to build guns on their own time,at the factory. Discontinued models,of which there remained quite a few parts were built,with the workers being charged minimal cost for the parts. No doubt some were done illegally,without permission,but one was risking being terminated from a relatively high paying job. I am most familiar with the New Services that were built right after World War Two ended,probably 1946-early 50's(enough New Service parts remained to assembly two in .45 acp,that Colt sold to Remington for ammo testing in 1954). These lunchbox specials can really confuse collectors! Serial numbers had to be kept for the BATF,but a few unserialed numbered N.S. are believed to have smuggled out illegally! Don't know what the security was at Colt in 1978 or so,when the "hybrid"on this thread may have been built,but I suspect it was a hell of lot stricter than years before. Gun may well have been factory assembled to clean up parts,as were the highly sought and valued S&W .38 M&P target models,built in 1946 to clean up prewar non ribbed barrels,the majority of which were sold to the Mexican Govt,hence its "Mexican Model" nickname. Shipping records might confirm that it(and perhaps a few more?) were sold to a distributor at a "special price"? Who knows,but part of what makes this frustrating,but fun!!! Bud
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Yes , it is fun !

re: Parts Clean ups .
I have one of the New Service's from the early 30's made from the pre-WWI parts . It's a little unusual . It's a 45acp with barrel marking of 45 Colt . Std 5.5" .

Being in firearms retail for 20 of our family store's 31 yrs , I've seen some strange ones in the 100k or so guns we've moved .

I appreciate all comments and suggestions . I'm glad this site was able to continue . It's members are an immense source of info .
 

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Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Guy,I am sure you know that if the N.Service you mention aid ".45 Auto Ctge" on its 5.5 bbl.,had no lanyard hole,wood stocks,that it might be one of the 1000 scarce 1917 "Commercials" thay were produced as part of the 1932/33 Colt parts clean up. Not as well known,are the "other calibers" in this clean up. Old barrels,without the taper near the breech,old "L shaped square latches"(ouch!) and the "hard rubber" black stocks,were put on some frames in the 330,000 range(same as the Commercial 1917s,I mentioned above) and sold in 38/40,44/40 and .45 Colt to certain distributors,at cut rate prices. I have an old Hudsons Sporting Goods catalogue from the 30's and these guns were going for $15 or so less than a "new" New Service" with the rounded latch,tapered barrel,wood stocks and later model stippled frame. These are primo pieces for the advanced N.Service collector,but far from "lunch box specials"! Bud
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: Police Positive 4\" 38spl Date

Hi Bud

Yes , my "clean up" NS is in the 336,xxx serial range . All old features you mention including the 1905 patent bbl and pre- "Improved Model" frame . This one never had provision for a lanyard ring . The 45acp cylinder is what I believe to be somewhat unusual as it is not one of the recognized 1,000 Commercial 1917's mentioned .

I love these old Colts !

Mitch
 
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