Question about your pre Detective Special frame/ Pics of mine

3329 Views 18 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Malysh, Jan 31, 2015

Malysh

Discussion Starter · Jan 15, 2015 (Edited)

Gents & Ladies, my pre D.S. , shipped in 1931 to the US Govt. in Wash DC, has serial #348953, which dates the frame to 1928.

It has the smooth trigger, smooth top strap, and correct barrel with only 38 Special on the left side of the barrel. It has the narrow square butt. It's the one that has the notched front sight and the original box. Members Hugh and Tom both once owned it, and Hugh posted pictures on the forum about 5 years ago in a long thread that I cannot find anymore. It also has the factory letter, if you remember the gun.

I am trying to establish a link from this gun to the Prohibition Bureau ( or wherever the search takes me), as Joe Canali advised me that Colt shipped similar quantities of "same type of guns in shipment" to Cincinnatti, Atlanta, & Chicago in the same time frame. My shipment contained 577 guns but the letter doesn't state "guns of the same type", but I feel strongly that the vast majority of guns in the shipments were factory 2" bbl. Detective Specials

I found it interesting that it also has a fouling cup for black powder early 38 Special cartridges in the top of the cylinder window just behind and above the back of the barrel.

Please let me know if any of you also have a fouling cup present on your pre Detective Special.

Thanks,
Mike

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saintclair

· #2 · Jan 15, 2015

Mike, I just checked my transitional DS in the 346,XXX range and it does have a fouling cup that has the appearance
like what you described. BTW, the Colt letter on this gun describes it as a Detective Special.

Reactions: 1

Malysh

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 15, 2015

The letter for mine says Police Positive Special, 2 inch barrel. The stocks were not listed, per usual.

One might assume that Colt wasn't going let older but perfectly serviceable PPS frames go to waste. SOP for any large manufacturing concern.

This brings up another question. Who knows when Colt discontinued the fouling cup on their revolvers?

twaits

· #4 · Jan 15, 2015

My 1933 (shipped in '34) squarebutt DS has the fouling cup

Bicycle handlebar Steel Bicycle part Carbon Pipe

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Malysh

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jan 16, 2015 (Edited)

Here's my gun. I believe these are the same pictures as in the original thread. There were some great posts by our members in the original one.

I intended to start a thread about this gun sometime in the future. I guess now is fine. I'm at a research impasse, but I am still trying to run down some inquiries. One of my friends who is very well versed in military Colts feels all the guns (shipments to Wash DC, Cincinnatti, Atlanta, & Chicago) were intended for the RMS Postal Dept. He knows a lot more than I will ever know but I am sceptical. There are no Colt factory done RMS, govt. inspector, and inventory stamps on my gun. Aside from the front sight modification, the gun is in almost new condition mechanically and cosmetically. The overwhelming majority of RMS guns were chambered for .38 New Police. I know that the Postal Dept. bought some 38 Specials for the RMS, but I contend that most RMS marked 38 Specials were post WWII purchases. RMS guns were generally stamped as such or show signs of inventory and agency markings removed, as well. This gun has no such RMS markings and has a pristine butt and back grip strap area with pre war Colt finish.

So then, what govt. agency would want approx. 1800-2000 2" DSs in 1931? I think it's possible these firearms orders were for Prohibition Bureau agents (aka "Prohies").
They weren't for the FBI, as they were not legally empowered to issue guns or have arrest powers until NFA 1934 was passed into law. I seriously doubt even J Edgar would misdirect budget funds to make an an agency-wide illegal firearms purchase. We know local SACs and agents bought their own guns locally and used local law enforcement for arrest powers prior to 1934.

I doubt most federal agencies wanted 2 inch barrel revolvers during this era. Secret service uniform duty? Probably wanted 4-6 inch guns. Perhaps even their plainclothes details, too. Most agencies simply didn't have enough personnel to need a fairly large number of these short barreled revolvers. I am leaning toward Prohibition agents as they were in every city, and carried firearms. ***Basil, if you read this could you tell me specificially if the Volstead Act spells out enforcement and rights to issue firearms to Prohibition Agents? They were attached to the Treasury Dept, first, then the Bureau of Investigation under the Dept. of Justice. (Hoover didn't want responsibility for Prohibition enforcement due to the large number of corrupted agents and the startling number of innocent civilians that got caught in their gun play, but he was forced to accept the Prohies. After the 23rd amendment passed and ended prohibition, the Prohibition Bureau was shifted back to Treasury, albeit with a modified mission statement,.
I cannot find this information and I know you are an attorney and a gun collector, thanks.

And because of the largish volume of guns ordered and the limited number of federal agencies that might need that many of them, my friend's RMS theory is still in play, even without the markings. I seriously doubt this riddle will ever be solved but it's fun trying to.

The rub with my theory is that major cities had federal buildings that housed numerous agencies, just like today. The 4 govt. orders were merely addressed to the US Govt. and the city sent to - no bureau agency or dept. and no street addresses. The guns in shipment to each city could well have been for multiple agencies housed in the federal building.

The pictures are excellent, (better than I can do) but they really don't show how pristine this gun is excepting the front sight modification Whatever govt. individual got this gun, it must have been a boss or manager that snagged it, as there is no high edge wear anyplace. This gun was not carried. I think he appropriated or was issued the gun, where it promptly stayed locked in his desk, file cabinet, or safe until he left. It was obviously well maintained over time and some owner evidently intended to use it, hence the chopped up front sight. For whatever reason, the gun was rarely handled or shot.

If any of you know if any aftermarket sight manufacturers sold a clamp-on front sights for pre war DSs which required a couple of notches on the sight, please sound off. Maybe I can start looking for one.
If it wasn't a commercially ordered sight enhancement, it was a very well done private job. The macro pictures of the sight notches make the cuts look crude. In reality, they were very professionally done.

Photos courtesy of H.C.

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8

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BULLSTONE

· #6 · Jan 16, 2015

Malysh said:
Here's my gun. I believe these are the same pictures as in the original thread. There were some great posts by our members in the original one.

I intended to start a thread about this gun sometime in the future. I'm at a research impasse, but I am still trying to run down some inquiries. One of my friends who is very well versed in military Colts feels all the guns (shipments to Wash DC, Cincinnatti, Atlanta, & Chicago) were intended for the RMS Postal Dept. He knows a lot more than I will ever know but I am sceptical. There are no Colt factory done RMS, govt. inspector, and inventory stamps on my gun. Aside from the front sight modification, the gun is in almost new condition mechanically and cosmetically. The overwhelming majority of RMS guns were chambered for .38 New Police. I know that the Postal Dept. bought some 38 Specials for the RMS, but I contend that most RMS marked 38 Specials were post WWII purchases. RMS guns were generally stamped as such or show signs of inventory and agency markings removed, as well. This gun has no such RMS markings and has a pristine butt and back grip strap area with pre war Colt finish.

So then, what govt. agency would want approx. 1800-2000 2" DSs in 1931? I think it's possible these firearms orders were for Prohibition Bureau agents (aka "Prohies").
They weren't for the FBI, as they were not legally empowered to issue guns or have arrest powers until NFA 1934 was passed into law. I seriously doubt even J Edgar would misdirect budget funds to make an an agency-wide illegal firearms purchase. We know local SACs and agents bought their own guns locally and used local law enforcement for arrest powers prior to 1934.

I doubt most federal agencies wanted 2 inch barrel revolvers during this era. Secret service uniform duty? Probably wanted 4-6 inch guns. Perhaps even their plainclothes details, too. Most agencies simply didn't have enough personnel to need a fairly large number of these short barreled revolvers. I am leaning toward Prohibition agents as they were in every city, and carried firearms. ***Basil, if you read this could you tell me specificially if the Volstead Act spells out enforcement and rights to issue firearms to Prohibition Agents? They were attached to the Treasury Dept, first, then the Bureau of Investigation under the Dept. of Justice. (Hoover didn't want responsibility for Prohibition enforcement due to the large number of corrupted agents and the startling number of innocent civilians that got caught in their gun play).
I cannot find this information and I know you are an attorney and a gun collector, thanks.

And because of the largish volume of guns ordered and the limited number of federal agencies that might need that many of them, my friend's RMS theory is still in play, even without the markings. I seriously doubt this riddle will ever be solved but it's fun trying to.

The rub with my theory is that major cities had federal buildings that housed numerous agencies, just like today. The 4 govt. orders were merely addressed to the US Govt. and the city sent to - no bureau agency or dept. and no street addresses. The guns in shipment to each city could well have been for multiple agencies housed in the federal building.

The pictures are better than I can do but they really don't show how pristine this gun is excepting the front sight modification Whatever govt. individual got this gun, it must have been a boss or manager that snagged it, as there is no high edge wear anyplace. This gun was not carried. I think he appropriated or was issued the gun, where it promptly stayed locked in his desk, file cabinet, or safe until he left. It was obviously well maintained over time and some owner evidently intended to use it, hence the chopped up front sight. For whatever reason, the gun was rarely handled or shot.

If any of you know if any aftermarket sight manufacturers sold a clamp-on front sights for pre war DSs which required a couple of notches on the sight, please sound off. Maybe I can start looking for one.
If it wasn't a commercially ordered sight enhancement, it was a very well done private job. The macro pictures of the sight notches make the cuts look crude. In reality, they were very professionally done.

Photos courtesy of H.C.

Malysh: I just looked at mine it is serial # 3542xx and it to has the fouling cup . I went and ordered a letter
from colt and in about 90 days will have info to add to your quest.

Best BULLSTONE

twaits

· #7 · Jan 16, 2015

I think the fouling cup was kept for quite a while. Maybe it wasn't just for relief from black powder fouling but so you wouldn't see any flame cutting. Seems like 1933 is an awful long time after blackpowder went out of widespread use for that to be the reason for it being there. It could just have been something they didn't even think about. It was just another step in the process that they had been doing for decades so they kept on doing it. I haven't looked at any of my other Colts to see if it's there. I think the only newer Colt revolver I have is a 1941 OP.

JudgeColt

· #8 · Jan 16, 2015

The "fouling cup" was kept to eliminate flame-cutting of the top strap.

An above post states that a Police Positive Special with a 2-inch barrel lettered as a "Detective Special" either represents an error by the researcher, or that is what the record shows. I THINK there was a period of time when the archive letters were labeling these guns as "Detective Special" revolvers when even the record did not show that, but I am not sure now. I believe that was corrected and most will letter as a "Police Positive Special" these days.

Reactions: 3

saintclair

· #9 · Jan 16, 2015

Mike, I looked at my older DS's and found one in the 417,XXX range with the fouling cup. The next DS that I own
is SN 472416 and it did not have the fouling cup. I guess that put the change somewhere between 1933 and 1941.

Reactions: 1

saintclair

· #10 · Jan 16, 2015

JudgeColt said:
The "fouling cup" was kept to eliminate flame-cutting of the top strap.

An above post states that a Police Positive Special with a 2-inch barrel lettered as a "Detective Special" either represents an error by the researcher, or that is what the record shows. I THINK there was a period of time when the archive letters were labeling these guns as "Detective Special" revolvers when even the record did not show that, but I am not sure now. I believe that was corrected and most will letter as a "Police Positive Special" these days.

Judge, My 2" Colt in the 346,XXX range has a Colt letter that refers to it as a Detective Special. That letter is dated August 30, 2013.
Mike's 2" Colt SN 348,953 has a Colt Letter that refers to it as a Police Positive Revolver. It has a sticker on the box end that reads "Special."
That letter is dated May 20, 2008.
To me, this evidence indicates that either Colt Archives has (as of 2013) changed the description of all of these 2" revolvers to Detective Special
or that during the period when these guns were being manufactured, Colt may have had a Police Positive Special manufacturing line that would
put different length barrels on those guns depending on 'what was ordered,' and that Colt was starting up a separate manufacturing line making
only 2" revolvers (on that same frame) which they marketed as Detective Specials with the hope of enticing more orders from police departments
because of the new 'catchy' name. Today, manufacturers say, "New and Improved" even when it is not improved.

Let's hope that our "member in the Colt Archives," Paul, will see this and render his opinion.

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Malysh

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jan 16, 2015 (Edited)

Thanks for checking; good information!

My 1944 Army Intel. square butt DS has a frame that dates to 1941 (#476239) without a fouling cup, too

I guess it's a good idea to remember that gun mfgs. were aware that many buyers would take years before they would switch to smokeless powder cartridges simply because it was a new invention, despite all the information about the new gun powders available and that many country's armies jumped on the smokeless cartridge band wagon fairly quickly.

It often comes down to human nature. Why buy a new product when you are satisfied with the old product (or design) that has always worked well for them? Many people don't like changes, especially as we age. Not all, but many.

Similar reactions with the gun buying public were noted when Walther in Europe first, then Colt in the early post war era introduced aluminum alloy handgun frames. Same thing later with polymer.frames that HK & Glock introduced in the early 1980s. There are still folks that dislike alum. and plastic frames.

As long as Colt determined that the older BP frames with the fouling cups were strong enough to use higher pressure smokeless cartridges they knew they could still use any remaining fouling cup/BP frames until they were gone.

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bayouboy

· #12 · Jan 17, 2015

All of my early square butt guns have the fouling cup. In checking my other pre-war guns, I notice that the fouling cup seemed to disappear with the advent of the round butt frame.

Case in point: I have number 410XXX (square butt) with the fouling cup. I have number 418XXX (round butt) with no fouling cup. Taken with Saintclair's previous observation that he has a 417XXX gun with the fouling cup, the evidence would seem to indicate that the feature was done away with at some point in the late 417 to early 418 range.

Of course someone will probably come along with a round butt gun with the fouling cup and prove this wrong!

Reactions: 2

up196

· #13 · Jan 17, 2015

bayouboy said:
Of course someone will probably come along with a round butt gun with the fouling cup and prove this wrong!

4182xx, round butt with fouling cup

Reactions: 3

bayouboy

· #14 · Jan 17, 2015

So much for going from memory! I went back and actually looked, my gun 418128 (round butt) does have the fouling cup. We can scrap my previous theory! The next guns I have are one in the 43, and two in the 44 ranges without the fouling cup.

Reactions: 1

Malysh

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jan 23, 2015

Thank you all for your participation and contributions to the question raised in this thread. I'm bumping it up in case other members want to sound off with their inf

ut,Mike

Arizona Bill

· #16 · Jan 23, 2015

Malysh said:
Gents & Ladies, my pre D.S. , shipped in 1931 to the US Govt. in Wash DC, has serial #348953, which dates the frame to 1928.

It has the smooth trigger, smooth top strap, and correct barrel with only 38 Special on the left side of the barrel. It has the narrow square butt. It's the one that has the notched front sight and the original box. Members Hugh and Tom both once owned it, and Hugh posted pictures on the forum about 5 years ago in a long thread that I cannot find anymore. It also has the factory letter, if you remember the gun.

I am trying to establish a link from this gun to the Prohibition Bureau ( or wherever the search takes me), as Joe Canali advised me that Colt shipped similar quantities of "same type of guns in shipment" to Cincinnatti, Atlanta, & Chicago in the same time frame. My shipment contained 577 guns but the letter doesn't state "guns of the same type", but I feel strongly that the vast majority of guns in the shipments were factory 2" bbl. Detective Specials

I found it interesting that it also has a fouling cup for black powder early 38 Special cartridges in the top of the cylinder window just behind and above the back of the barrel.

Please let me know if any of you also have a fouling cup present on your pre Detective Special.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike, my 1926 2" Police Positive Special with a fouling cup.

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Malysh

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jan 23, 2015

Arizona Bill said:
Mike, my 1926 2" Police Positive Special with a fouling cup.

Excellent, Bill.

I remember when you posted this cool Colt and the background of private banking security in the early 20th cent. in my hometown, NYC.I'm glad to see this one again.

Reactions: 2

mtrtgp65

· #18 · Jan 31, 2015

Can't add much. Both DS 418191, Round butt and 411007 Square butt have the cup.Tom

Reactions: 1

Malysh

Discussion Starter · #19 · Jan 31, 2015

Thanks for your information, Mr. P.

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