If you batter anything with hot loads, including the big "N" Frame Smith you will accelerate wear. "Handling" and accelerating replacement of wear items and service work are not exlusive.
Shooting 125 gr. Magnums through a Python.
I know "rumor has it" that overuse of such rounds can crack or erode the force cone on the K frame S&W. But I always assumed they would be fine in the larger Colt Python E/I frame or equal sized S&W L frame (isn't that why S&W made the L frame to address this?). But I've come across a few posts on a google search that say this load is bad for the Python too. Is that true? If so, what then can you shoot these through safely (for the gun)? Beyond the Python the only thing tougher that I can think of is a S&W N Frame M-28 or 27. This is one of the most commonly used Magnum load. In fact academy and wal mart usually has nothing but 125 grain (Maybe 158 gr)
I've shot box after box over the years of 125 gr Remington and Winchester through my Python as well as my M-28.
I've shot box after box over the years of 125 gr Remington and Winchester through my Python as well as my M-28.
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If that's all there was to it, why did they discontinue the M19? Cracked force cone is not exactly wear, that's almost like a flaw. Anyway: magnum means magnum. The original .357 magnum load was a lot hotter and faster than anything cranked out of the factory these days, including the 125 grain lighter bullets
The 66 and 19 was made until 99 I believe, long after the 586 and 686 came out, 125 grn JHP's had nothing to do with them being discontinued. You asked a question and I answered it the best I could. Heavy magnum loads will accelerate wear in the Python, or any gun chambered for them. Typically less wear is seen from lighter loads, I think that is commonly accepted. YMMV
I'm just trying to think my way through this. Didn't mean to sound argumentative. The accelerated wear I can understand. Its just something like a cracked cone sounds more like a flaw or defect. Some people, unlike your explanation, treat 125 gr rounds like a "no-no" in guns unless its "just for defense"
I have never heard nor read from a reliable source that the 125 gr. JHP was especially hard on revolvers, only through third person sources. The Model 19 did get a bad reputation from silhouette shooting using very heavy heavy bullet loads, such as the 173 gr. SWC and the 180 gr. FMJ bullets. The damage from these loads was in the shearing off of internal pivot pins under recoil. I understand some guns suffered cracked forcing cones when used in PPC courses or similar courses. I've personally used the 125 gr. Remington SJHP bullets at screaming veolocities in several of my .357 Magnums, including a Colt Python, though never in a Model 19 Smith and suffered no ill effects. As a matter of interest my son-in-law had the barrel stub of his Dan Wesson crack in three places, but this from heavier bullet loadings.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
It's not my intent to hijack the thread, but I've never understood the need for shooting bullets at "screaming velocities" out of any handgun. If you are just shooting paper targets or cans, a nominal velocity will serve the purpose just fine. Why chance ruining a nice firearm just to see flames coming out of the barrel? If you feel the need for more recoil buy a larger caliber gun.
Just my 2¢...............
Just my 2¢...............
Because it's a magnum. A magnum is a magnumIt's not my intent to hijack the thread, but I've never understood the need for shooting bullets at "screaming velocities" out of any handgun. If you are just shooting paper targets or cans, a nominal velocity will serve the purpose just fine. Why chance ruining a nice firearm just to see flames coming out of the barrel? If you feel the need for more recoil buy a larger caliber gun.
Just my 2¢...............
The hot 125 grain loads do tend to gas cut the top strap of revolvers, although this is self-limiting. It gets so bad and no more.
The issue with cracked forcing cones on the S&W "K" frame seemed to be related to two things.
1. The flat machined on the bottom of the barrel to allow clearance for the cylinder yoke.
Some guns seemed to have a cut deeper into the cone.
This flat weakened the cone in that area.
2. The guns that cracked usually had badly fouled forcing cones from not being cleaned.
This is why you should use a Lewis Lead Remover kit to clean the forcing cone even if all you shoot is jacketed bullets.
Hot ammo can damage the forcing cone by erosion. The hotter load with the short 125 grain bullet allows the super heated gas and the bullet hitting the forcing cone harder to cause both erosion and metal fatigue, which can cause the cone to crack.
Just to protect the gun, many shooters limit the hot 125 grain loads just to extend the life of the gun.
The S&W "K" frame was known for probable issues with 125 grain loads, but all revolvers occasionally turn up with eroded or cracked cones.
I've always wondered why we never hear about the S&W "J" frame guns in .357 cracking cones.
As a matter of interest, S&W has re-introduced the Model 66 "K" frame.
Is it possible reports of problems were not as bad as thought, or has S&W improved the design or the metallurgy?
The issue with cracked forcing cones on the S&W "K" frame seemed to be related to two things.
1. The flat machined on the bottom of the barrel to allow clearance for the cylinder yoke.
Some guns seemed to have a cut deeper into the cone.
This flat weakened the cone in that area.
2. The guns that cracked usually had badly fouled forcing cones from not being cleaned.
This is why you should use a Lewis Lead Remover kit to clean the forcing cone even if all you shoot is jacketed bullets.
Hot ammo can damage the forcing cone by erosion. The hotter load with the short 125 grain bullet allows the super heated gas and the bullet hitting the forcing cone harder to cause both erosion and metal fatigue, which can cause the cone to crack.
Just to protect the gun, many shooters limit the hot 125 grain loads just to extend the life of the gun.
The S&W "K" frame was known for probable issues with 125 grain loads, but all revolvers occasionally turn up with eroded or cracked cones.
I've always wondered why we never hear about the S&W "J" frame guns in .357 cracking cones.
As a matter of interest, S&W has re-introduced the Model 66 "K" frame.
Is it possible reports of problems were not as bad as thought, or has S&W improved the design or the metallurgy?
Probably because people couldn't get more than 2 shots off .357 Magnum through the little J frame before their wrist said "ENOUGH"I've always wondered why we never hear about the S&W "J" frame guns in .357 cracking cones.
The faster the bullet covers the distance to the target, the less time wind and gravity have to affect its flight. Generally I found that the very high velocities for the 125 gr. bullets were not the answer for me, as these little pills lost their velocity quicker than heavier bullets, and achieved flatter trajectories with 140 gr. bullets in the .357 Magnum.It's not my intent to hijack the thread, but I've never understood the need for shooting bullets at "screaming velocities" out of any handgun. If you are just shooting paper targets or cans, a nominal velocity will serve the purpose just fine. Why chance ruining a nice firearm just to see flames coming out of the barrel? If you feel the need for more recoil buy a larger caliber gun.
Just my 2¢...............
This was all in my experimentation and learning process as a younger shooter. And the targets were not always paper targets nor tin cans.
Bob Wright
^ right. I shoot at wood, plywood, sheetrock, sand, pumpkins, tree stumps and many other things out on my property to see the effect of different rounds and loads.
I´ve heard the last 66s (those ones of the two pieces barrel) has no flat spot in the rear part of the barrel. Could it help?As a matter of interest, S&W has re-introduced the Model 66 "K" frame.
Is it possible reports of problems were not as bad as thought, or has S&W improved the design or the metallurgy?
Forgive my Bad English.
I have over 3000 rounds through my stainless Python and have yet to have an issue. Still shoots like a dream. Oh and that is with all kinds of magnum loads. No reloads all factory.
What dfariswheel said.
The trick is to run a heavier bullet; one with greater sectional density, and hence, greater downrange stability.
I have run some fairly stout loads in several calibers, and cannot see any advantage.
I usually end up in the upper 30% with a bullet of suitable weight.
I have not run any 'nutty' loads in a very long time.
The trick is to run a heavier bullet; one with greater sectional density, and hence, greater downrange stability.
I have run some fairly stout loads in several calibers, and cannot see any advantage.
I usually end up in the upper 30% with a bullet of suitable weight.
I have not run any 'nutty' loads in a very long time.
The S&W Model 66 is an improved model. The frame is actually slightly taller so that eliminates the need for the flat on the bottom of the forcing cone.I´ve heard the last 66s (those ones of the two pieces barrel) has no flat spot in the rear part of the barrel. Could it help?
Forgive my Bad English.
This also makes problems if you want to use the new Model 66 in a holster made for the older Model 66. The larger frame doesn't fit.
As for Magnum loads in Colt's, I always had the idea that when plinking or shooting at targets it's kind of silly to shoot full charge Magnum ammo.
Not only is it harder on the gun, the more powerful loads also cost more the load if you're a reloader or to buy factory ammo.
I practice enough with Magnum ammo to keep the feel of the more powerful ammo, but shoot the lightest Mid-Range loads to save money and wear and tear on the gun.
I seldom shoot Magnum ammo through my limited production S&W Model 66 with the 3 inch barrel, but as above shoot enough to keep in practice with Magnum loads.
If I ever decide to start carrying either of my Model 66's I'll probably go with the HOT Buffalo Bore .38 +P lead, semi-wadcutter, hollow point ammo.
This load is loaded at the extreme upper limit for +P and is widely touted as a great defense load.
I still carry one of the Model 66's on occasion and loaded with 125 grain Magnum Remington ammo.
I do worry about damaging the forcing cones on the 66's, because there are no replacement barrels, especially for the 3 inch so I seldom shoot Magnum ammo through them these days.
What's considered to be a "hot" 125 gr load and why 125 gr bullets in particular? I shoot relatively mild 125 gr hand loads through my newer Python. The propellant charge is actually the same as for my 115 gr 9mm loads (4.0 gr of Tite Group). Hodgdon shows the pressure for this .357 Magnum load as 13,800 CUP and recoil feels mild compared to 158 gr factory .357 Magnum ammo I've fired. Is factory loaded 125 gr .357 ammunition that much hotter?
What's the issue with the 125 grain .357 Magnum load is that the very hot load combined with a light weight bullet causes gas cutting of the top strap, and the short, fast moving bullet allows gas leakage through the barrel-cylinder gap.
Before the shorter 125 grain bullet completely enters the barrel the rear end is almost out of the cylinder allowing considerable gas leakage.
This causes erosion damage to the forcing cone, and the higher velocity bullet impacting the forcing cone causes metal fatigue.
The combination of erosion and metal fatigue can cause the forcing cone to crack.
Most 125 grain Magnum loads are loaded very hot and are considered to be about the hottest that still gave effective penetration, which was done to fill the need by law enforcement for the most effective Magnum load.
Whatever, it certainly worked..... the 125 grain Magnum had the best actual performance of all the .357 loads, with one-shot stops so close to 100% as to be within the margin of the numbers.
So it's not just the 125 grain bullet, if loaded lighter there's no problem.
It's the combination of the 125 grain bullet with a very hot loaded cartridge.
One of THE hottest of the 125 grain .357 Magnum loads is the Remington load which was a police favorite.
Before the shorter 125 grain bullet completely enters the barrel the rear end is almost out of the cylinder allowing considerable gas leakage.
This causes erosion damage to the forcing cone, and the higher velocity bullet impacting the forcing cone causes metal fatigue.
The combination of erosion and metal fatigue can cause the forcing cone to crack.
Most 125 grain Magnum loads are loaded very hot and are considered to be about the hottest that still gave effective penetration, which was done to fill the need by law enforcement for the most effective Magnum load.
Whatever, it certainly worked..... the 125 grain Magnum had the best actual performance of all the .357 loads, with one-shot stops so close to 100% as to be within the margin of the numbers.
So it's not just the 125 grain bullet, if loaded lighter there's no problem.
It's the combination of the 125 grain bullet with a very hot loaded cartridge.
One of THE hottest of the 125 grain .357 Magnum loads is the Remington load which was a police favorite.
Thanks for that excellent explanation. Is the gas leakage still a problem to a lesser degree even with light loads or does lower temperature and slower bullet velocity negate this? My shooting is pretty much limited to paper targets in an indoor range at less than 20 yards, so I have no real need for magnum loads and high velocity.
Is the hot 125 gr really more effective than a heavier 158 gr-200 gr? I thought the 125 gr was, while still being a good one shot stop, a tone down to quell fears of over penetration by heavier more powerful loads.What's the issue with the 125 grain .357 Magnum load is that the very hot load combined with a light weight bullet causes gas cutting of the top strap, and the short, fast moving bullet allows gas leakage through the barrel-cylinder gap.
Before the shorter 125 grain bullet completely enters the barrel the rear end is almost out of the cylinder allowing considerable gas leakage.
This causes erosion damage to the forcing cone, and the higher velocity bullet impacting the forcing cone causes metal fatigue.
The combination of erosion and metal fatigue can cause the forcing cone to crack.
Most 125 grain Magnum loads are loaded very hot and are considered to be about the hottest that still gave effective penetration, which was done to fill the need by law enforcement for the most effective Magnum load.
Whatever, it certainly worked..... the 125 grain Magnum had the best actual performance of all the .357 loads, with one-shot stops so close to 100% as to be within the margin of the numbers.
I've actually grown kind of fond of carrying 158 to 180 gr in my Python and Highway Patrolman
So it's not just the 125 grain bullet, if loaded lighter there's no problem.
It's the combination of the 125 grain bullet with a very hot loaded cartridge.
One of THE hottest of the 125 grain .357 Magnum loads is the Remington load which was a police favorite.
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
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