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Discussion Starter #41
If you have no interest in collecting artilleries, perhaps I don’t understand the reasoning behind the post? You spoke about the “myths” associated with these guns and that you wanted to dispel or perpetuate them... it seems as though your mind is made up however so this must be the later of the two? I have no interest in collecting Mossberg’s but I also don’t post on that site (if there is one)?😎
I never said I wouldn't own one, I said I don't touch them because of the obvious pitfalls involved with these guns. I also stated that I want to like these guns but can't find any good reason to ' go there ' so to speak. And the mossberg thing doesn't apply since I own 10 1st gen SAA, 1 2nd gen SAA, 3 3rd gen SAA, 1 early 4 in. Python, 1. 2 1/2 inch Diamondback, 3 Frontier Scout models, including a first year magnum scout. And this is a Colt forum, not an artillery forum. The idea here was to get some facts, not opinions, that might change minds about these guns.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
What makes you think they don't appeal to new collectors? If they only appealed to a dying group of old collectors, prices would be declining, which does not appear to be the case.
The fact that most new collectors are wary of buying regular 1st gen guns because of some of the pitfalls involved. An artillery model has a lot more pitfalls to look out for and are a lot more expensive. And now is a sellers market, which will bring higher than normal prices on any gun, not a good time to make that assumption about prices dropping. Also artillery models are a niche market accounting for maybe 1% of the total Colt SAA market, which is a small part of the overall gun market, so the pool is very small to make that determination just yet.
 

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hello, lance; . .their grandfathers were busy back in the 30s, we had them in the 50s, their fathers in the 90s, and may have their children again in the 2030s. they are descendants of the insatiable depraved victorian collectors who ravished classical regions in their time.
regards, bro
Cannot for the life of me figure out what this individual is trying to say in this or other threads. Mumblings about ‘flyover country’ in another one....
 

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Please don’t close this thread... I think it is valuable from the stand point that it shows a very real bias towards these guns that is not based in reality.
I am one of those “new collectors” that chose to purchase an artillery SPECIFICALLY because of the history of these guns. I did my research and read everything I could find prior to making my decision. I think that people can and often do make mistakes but others can learn from it as well.
Just because the OP was trying to get at his reasons for not wanting one doesn’t mean that he’s right (I personally believe he’s wrong). It is still good to discuss these issues in an open forum because new folks like myself need every bit of information possible. There are a lot of collectors that think like the OP and because of that there is always going to be a bit of mystery / controversy around artilleries.
 

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The fact that most new collectors are wary of buying regular 1st gen guns because of some of the pitfalls involved. An artillery model has a lot more pitfalls to look out for and are a lot more expensive. And now is a sellers market, which will bring higher than normal prices on any gun, not a good time to make that assumption about prices dropping. Also artillery models are a niche market accounting for maybe 1% of the total Colt SAA market, which is a small part of the overall gun market, so the pool is very small to make that determination just yet.
Ive found far less pitfalls in the Artillery's........its the Cavalry's you need to be ALOT more cautious with....as far as "faked" or "altered". One trick people do is take an Artillery, rebuild, restamp and refinish it into a "numbers matching Cavalry forgery" and try to pass it along as an original......I think Im up to 15 or so US Martial SAA's....Of those, 5 are Artillery's. 3 are gold letter authenticated original, one has an altered front site and one has sustained an older restoration....none are "faked". I have however been screwed over on an Ainsworth Cavalry and seen several others that were indeed rebuilt using artillery frames, a mixture of civilian and other parts. I started into US Martial SAA's a couple years ago....I found that it is invaluable to have the Kopec books as well as be in communication with him if you have a question. The US guns are not for the faint of heart if you desire original unaltered government originals. The Civilian SAA's are a ton easier to collect...that being said....there are fakes in everything
 

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The fact that most new collectors are wary of buying regular 1st gen guns because of some of the pitfalls involved. An artillery model has a lot more pitfalls to look out for and are a lot more expensive. And now is a sellers market, which will bring higher than normal prices on any gun, not a good time to make that assumption about prices dropping. Also artillery models are a niche market accounting for maybe 1% of the total Colt SAA market, which is a small part of the overall gun market, so the pool is very small to make that determination just yet.
You are also making a lot of assumptions, based on what data other than your own personal opinion, I'm not sure. Everything you said above pretty much applies to every genre or category of collecting. If you are new, uneducated, impatient, and not interested in researching and studying a lot before making a purchase, it can be a very expensive and unfulfilling hobby.
 

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Cannot for the life of me figure out what this individual is trying to say in this or other threads. Mumblings about ‘flyover country’ in another one....
hello, desron6, i am sorry about mumblings, can't always see what i am saying :^). gent was discussing the high rollers in collecting arms, i suggested was not a new problem, but really an old disease going back to the romans taking greek antiques home. "flyover country" is where east - west coast limousine liberals fly over to get to their other acceptable locations.

regards, bro
 

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Please don’t close this thread... I think it is valuable from the stand point that it shows a very real bias towards these guns that is not based in reality.
I am one of those “new collectors” that chose to purchase an artillery SPECIFICALLY because of the history of these guns. I did my research and read everything I could find prior to making my decision. I think that people can and often do make mistakes but others can learn from it as well.
Just because the OP was trying to get at his reasons for not wanting one doesn’t mean that he’s right (I personally believe he’s wrong). It is still good to discuss these issues in an open forum because new folks like myself need every bit of information possible. There are a lot of collectors that think like the OP and because of that there is always going to be a bit of mystery / controversy around artilleries.
Start a new thread and those of us that are students of artillery model guns will answer if we can, any questions.
 

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My apologies for my belated reply to this thread. Not retired yet, so my day job wastes takes up a lot of my time.

Let's start with the title of this thread. Artillery Model revolvers are more than a myth. They are a reality, part of the "lore" of the Old West, the Indian Wars, for better or worse.

As for value. As others have said, the value is what anyone is willing to pay for an item or object. Indeed, during the Great Depression, Colt revolvers were often stuffed into pickle barrels, or so I have been told, with a sign stating "Your choice, $5 each", or something similar. Old, matching serial number Colt Single Action Army revolvers with little condition had no value, I'm sure the nonmatching (Artillery Model) revolvers were deemed even less desirable. It has been only the last 50 years, after scholarly research has been done, in which the true value of these, from a historical perspective, has been identified, and an increase in monetary value has risen in tandem.

When you purchase a Colt Single Army Revolver, you are purchasing, if not later faked, components of original Cavalry Model revolvers that were there, part of the taming of the West, part of the Indian Wars, these intact Cavalry Model revolvers being recalled due to the reports of poor performance of the .38 Long Colt. Springfield Armory would disassemble these intact revolvers, refurbish all reusable parts, cut the barrel to 5 1/2" and reassemble. Having done that, these Artillery Model revolvers, although valuable, are generally not as valuable as an intact Cavalry Model revolver in similar condition and in a similar serial number range, even though those Cavalry Model revolvers still extant do not have such a storied past, most having been issued to state militias.

So, I hope this dispels the myth of these being of little interest due to being parts guns. Yes, in the strictest sense, they are parts guns, but parts of Cavalry Model revolvers that all have a history. Indeed, the history behind a barrel, cylinder, back strap, trigger guard, and frame, all with different numbers, can prove fascinating as to the origination of each part, although the barrel and cylinder sometimes have 4 digit serial numbers of which preceding digits cannot be determined.

Now, as to the question of whether or not one could fabricate an Artillery Model revolver and pass it off as genuine today, the answer is emphatically yes. Indeed, when one presents a Colt Artillery Model revolver, the first sentence or so usually begins with something along the lines of the subject revolver has been previously identified in our survey, and then John Kopec determines if the configuration is identical to as previously surveyed, provided there are no problems previously identified, or has someone since monkeyed with it. IF John determines that this is a new entry, then he examines all components, references parts lists he has going back many decades, looks at known serial number ranges for Artillery and Cavalry Model revolvers, and assesses the general integrity and finish of the revolver, and, if after all that, if you have managed to assemble a revolver using genuine Cavalry component parts, of which none have been previously surveyed, not on parts lists, no obvious questions as to originality or even the fit of the revolver, such as the ears of the backstrap not fitting properly or even something as simple as grips having evidence of usage as a tackdriver and curiously the backstrap exhibits no such evidence--if, after all that, it appears genuine, then it would qualify as such. Indeed, in the 1950's or 1960's , a few drums of Cavalry Model components were discovered in the Colt factory, and from these no doubt several Artillery Model revolvers were assembled. This being prior to John's surveys and so an Artillery Model assembled then could come up as a Gold Seal of Approval letter, if deemed authentic. I suppose what's the difference between an Artillery Model, probably with better condition than a well used one, as it was assembled decades later, what's the difference between that and one demonstrating considerable wear having been used in the Philippines? Indeed, the one recently assembled might be more desirable due to condition.

As to value, you are paying for a First Generation Colt Single Action Army revolver, antique, in .45 Colt. Unless in dastardly condition, reblued & rebuffed, that's at least a 2k gun today. Add in the lore of the West and the Indian Wars, and you can generally easily double that. Add in any condition and the value goes up from there. A Kopec letter is a must, as, in my research, it is difficult for an Artillery Model to crack 4k without a decent Kopec letter, unless the condition suggests otherwise.

Also, as far as valuation goes, as stated previously, this is only what others are willing to pay. Figures given, although approximate, are what these tend to bring today. Prices on these have been depressed recently but there might be a slight upswing--only time will tell. And, the market is only what this fraction of a subset of collectors is willing to pay. Think of it this way--I might be willing to pay a certain price on these, because I collect them. Most of the general public might consider me certifiably insane. Likewise, I'm sure that there might be a Cabbage Patch Doll collector who might slap down $500 for what they feel is the bargain of a lifetime, whereas if I dropped $25 on the same item, I might think I might have made an egregious error for which I might not financially ever recover from.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
So, to recap and get this thread back on topic, Colt rebuild artillery models are numbers matching and can be documented. Springfield arsenal rebuild models are mix master guns correct? And if one wanted to look into these guns a Colt rebuild would be the better alternative and would command a larger amount of money? It would seem that there are fewer of the Colt rebuilds, I know I've never seen a numbers matching artillery for sale but then I don't peruse high end auctions mainly cause it is out of my wheelhouse.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
My apologies for my belated reply to this thread. Not retired yet, so my day job wastes takes up a lot of my time.

Let's start with the title of this thread. Artillery Model revolvers are more than a myth. They are a reality, part of the "lore" of the Old West, the Indian Wars, for better or worse.

As for value. As others have said, the value is what anyone is willing to pay for an item or object. Indeed, during the Great Depression, Colt revolvers were often stuffed into pickle barrels, or so I have been told, with a sign stating "Your choice, $5 each", or something similar. Old, matching serial number Colt Single Action Army revolvers with little condition had no value, I'm sure the nonmatching (Artillery Model) revolvers were deemed even less desirable. It has been only the last 50 years, after scholarly research has been done, in which the true value of these, from a historical perspective, has been identified, and an increase in monetary value has risen in tandem.

When you purchase a Colt Single Army Revolver, you are purchasing, if not later faked, components of original Cavalry Model revolvers that were there, part of the taming of the West, part of the Indian Wars, these intact Cavalry Model revolvers being recalled due to the reports of poor performance of the .38 Long Colt. Springfield Armory would disassemble these intact revolvers, refurbish all reusable parts, cut the barrel to 5 1/2" and reassemble. Having done that, these Artillery Model revolvers, although valuable, are generally not as valuable as an intact Cavalry Model revolver in similar condition and in a similar serial number range, even though those Cavalry Model revolvers still extant do not have such a storied past, most having been issued to state militias.

So, I hope this dispels the myth of these being of little interest due to being parts guns. Yes, in the strictest sense, they are parts guns, but parts of Cavalry Model revolvers that all have a history. Indeed, the history behind a barrel, cylinder, back strap, trigger guard, and frame, all with different numbers, can prove fascinating as to the origination of each part, although the barrel and cylinder sometimes have 4 digit serial numbers of which preceding digits cannot be determined.

Now, as to the question of whether or not one could fabricate an Artillery Model revolver and pass it off as genuine today, the answer is emphatically yes. Indeed, when one presents a Colt Artillery Model revolver, the first sentence or so usually begins with something along the lines of the subject revolver has been previously identified in our survey, and then John Kopec determines if the configuration is identical to as previously surveyed, provided there are no problems previously identified, or has someone since monkeyed with it. IF John determines that this is a new entry, then he examines all components, references parts lists he has going back many decades, looks at known serial number ranges for Artillery and Cavalry Model revolvers, and assesses the general integrity and finish of the revolver, and, if after all that, if you have managed to assemble a revolver using genuine Cavalry component parts, of which none have been previously surveyed, not on parts lists, no obvious questions as to originality or even the fit of the revolver, such as the ears of the backstrap not fitting properly or even something as simple as grips having evidence of usage as a tackdriver and curiously the backstrap exhibits no such evidence--if, after all that, it appears genuine, then it would qualify as such. Indeed, in the 1950's or 1960's , a few drums of Cavalry Model components were discovered in the Colt factory, and from these no doubt several Artillery Model revolvers were assembled. This being prior to John's surveys and so an Artillery Model assembled then could come up as a Gold Seal of Approval letter, if deemed authentic. I suppose what's the difference between an Artillery Model, probably with better condition than a well used one, as it was assembled decades later, what's the difference between that and one demonstrating considerable wear having been used in the Philippines? Indeed, the one recently assembled might be more desirable due to condition.

As to value, you are paying for a First Generation Colt Single Action Army revolver, antique, in .45 Colt. Unless in dastardly condition, reblued & rebuffed, that's at least a 2k gun today. Add in the lore of the West and the Indian Wars, and you can generally easily double that. Add in any condition and the value goes up from there. A Kopec letter is a must, as, in my research, it is difficult for an Artillery Model to crack 4k without a decent Kopec letter, unless the condition suggests otherwise.

Also, as far as valuation goes, as stated previously, this is only what others are willing to pay. Figures given, although approximate, are what these tend to bring today. Prices on these have been depressed recently but there might be a slight upswing--only time will tell. And, the market is only what this fraction of a subset of collectors is willing to pay. Think of it this way--I might be willing to pay a certain price on these, because I collect them. Most of the general public might consider me certifiably insane. Likewise, I'm sure that there might be a Cabbage Patch Doll collector who might slap down $500 for what they feel is the bargain of a lifetime, whereas if I dropped $25 on the same item, I might think I might have made an egregious error for which I might not financially ever recover from.
I was hoping you would get involved with the discussion, thank you for your response. I appreciate the insight from an experienced artillery collector.
 

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Ok... Stupid question time this discussion is directed at first Gen Colt Artillery models? Or could my third gen with the 5.5 inch barrel I bought new still be a parts gun or fake?
 

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My apologies for my belated reply to this thread. Not retired yet, so my day job wastes takes up a lot of my time.

Let's start with the title of this thread. Artillery Model revolvers are more than a myth. They are a reality, part of the "lore" of the Old West, the Indian Wars, for better or worse.

As for value. As others have said, the value is what anyone is willing to pay for an item or object. Indeed, during the Great Depression, Colt revolvers were often stuffed into pickle barrels, or so I have been told, with a sign stating "Your choice, $5 each", or something similar. Old, matching serial number Colt Single Action Army revolvers with little condition had no value, I'm sure the nonmatching (Artillery Model) revolvers were deemed even less desirable. It has been only the last 50 years, after scholarly research has been done, in which the true value of these, from a historical perspective, has been identified, and an increase in monetary value has risen in tandem.

When you purchase a Colt Single Army Revolver, you are purchasing, if not later faked, components of original Cavalry Model revolvers that were there, part of the taming of the West, part of the Indian Wars, these intact Cavalry Model revolvers being recalled due to the reports of poor performance of the .38 Long Colt. Springfield Armory would disassemble these intact revolvers, refurbish all reusable parts, cut the barrel to 5 1/2" and reassemble. Having done that, these Artillery Model revolvers, although valuable, are generally not as valuable as an intact Cavalry Model revolver in similar condition and in a similar serial number range, even though those Cavalry Model revolvers still extant do not have such a storied past, most having been issued to state militias.

So, I hope this dispels the myth of these being of little interest due to being parts guns. Yes, in the strictest sense, they are parts guns, but parts of Cavalry Model revolvers that all have a history. Indeed, the history behind a barrel, cylinder, back strap, trigger guard, and frame, all with different numbers, can prove fascinating as to the origination of each part, although the barrel and cylinder sometimes have 4 digit serial numbers of which preceding digits cannot be determined.

Now, as to the question of whether or not one could fabricate an Artillery Model revolver and pass it off as genuine today, the answer is emphatically yes. Indeed, when one presents a Colt Artillery Model revolver, the first sentence or so usually begins with something along the lines of the subject revolver has been previously identified in our survey, and then John Kopec determines if the configuration is identical to as previously surveyed, provided there are no problems previously identified, or has someone since monkeyed with it. IF John determines that this is a new entry, then he examines all components, references parts lists he has going back many decades, looks at known serial number ranges for Artillery and Cavalry Model revolvers, and assesses the general integrity and finish of the revolver, and, if after all that, if you have managed to assemble a revolver using genuine Cavalry component parts, of which none have been previously surveyed, not on parts lists, no obvious questions as to originality or even the fit of the revolver, such as the ears of the backstrap not fitting properly or even something as simple as grips having evidence of usage as a tackdriver and curiously the backstrap exhibits no such evidence--if, after all that, it appears genuine, then it would qualify as such. Indeed, in the 1950's or 1960's , a few drums of Cavalry Model components were discovered in the Colt factory, and from these no doubt several Artillery Model revolvers were assembled. This being prior to John's surveys and so an Artillery Model assembled then could come up as a Gold Seal of Approval letter, if deemed authentic. I suppose what's the difference between an Artillery Model, probably with better condition than a well used one, as it was assembled decades later, what's the difference between that and one demonstrating considerable wear having been used in the Philippines? Indeed, the one recently assembled might be more desirable due to condition.

As to value, you are paying for a First Generation Colt Single Action Army revolver, antique, in .45 Colt. Unless in dastardly condition, reblued & rebuffed, that's at least a 2k gun today. Add in the lore of the West and the Indian Wars, and you can generally easily double that. Add in any condition and the value goes up from there. A Kopec letter is a must, as, in my research, it is difficult for an Artillery Model to crack 4k without a decent Kopec letter, unless the condition suggests otherwise.

Also, as far as valuation goes, as stated previously, this is only what others are willing to pay. Figures given, although approximate, are what these tend to bring today. Prices on these have been depressed recently but there might be a slight upswing--only time will tell. And, the market is only what this fraction of a subset of collectors is willing to pay. Think of it this way--I might be willing to pay a certain price on these, because I collect them. Most of the general public might consider me certifiably insane. Likewise, I'm sure that there might be a Cabbage Patch Doll collector who might slap down $500 for what they feel is the bargain of a lifetime, whereas if I dropped $25 on the same item, I might think I might have made an egregious error for which I might not financially ever recover from.
in my opinion, a great concise comment. an aside - in yankton, 1954, 1955 a shop had dragoons in shooting condition for 50 to 100 dollars and two second contract sometimes called flucks at 300 dollars each, still unsold when i moved to canton n y to college. but remember a family of four could live quite well on 75 dollars a week then.
 

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So, to recap and get this thread back on topic, Colt rebuild artillery models are numbers matching and can be documented. Springfield arsenal rebuild models are mix master guns correct? And if one wanted to look into these guns a Colt rebuild would be the better alternative and would command a larger amount of money? It would seem that there are fewer of the Colt rebuilds, I know I've never seen a numbers matching artillery for sale but then I don't peruse high end auctions mainly cause it is out of my wheelhouse.
In the most general sense, I believe you are correct about the Colt v. Springfield part. All else equal, a matching #’s gun would be worth more. I’m not sure I have seen a matching #’s artillery so I would be anxious if anyone has photos to post them.
Again, I am no expert by a LONG stretch, but a lot of the more valuable SAA’s are because of the history (or potential history) associated with them.
 
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