[Spirit]

Hi all. Some time ago I came into possession of a lovely and mysterious Colt revolver. I never got around to making a post about it, but I have slipped in a photo here and there you may have seen. We got to talking about these unique revolvers in the DS photo section, so I decided to finally make that post. It's been a while since we had a good thread about these curious revolvers, and there is a chance a few members here don't even know they exist, so I'd love to shed light on them. As well, if you have any information or photos of your own, feel free to share! I'd love to see and hear from everyone.

Some history:
For those that don't know, these are often referred to as a Pre-Detective Special, although more correctly they are a 2" Police Positive Special. They are properly the 'patriarch' of the snub-nose family, and one of the only guns Colt ever made that doesn't have a name or patent information anywhere on it.

So what exactly is a Pre-Detective Special? As the collector given nickname would suggest, it is the model that immediately preceded the Colt Detective Special. In 1926, the Detroit Police Department along with a few others wanted to arm their plainclothes detectives with a powerful, compact revolver, but no such thing was commercially available. There were short barreled revolvers, but nothing quite like what they were looking for. So, as Colt is famous for doing, they built a gun to fit the need. In reality, they took their already popular Police Positive Special revolver, produced a new 2" barrel, and began to fit the same gun frames with the shorter barrel.

Immediately the gun proved a huge success, not only with the police, but civilian market too. So much so that around mid year of 1927 (I believe May), Colt began to market this revolver as its own model, coining the famous name, the Colt Detective Special, after the men that used them.

Apart from being the forerunners of the snub nose family, what makes these early type Detective Specials particularly unique are their features. Other than just the name, they stand out from your average Detective Special. They were produced from 1926-1927 on special order before the Detective Special name came into use, so the barrels are simply hand-stamped ".38 Special" and they have no patent information on the reverse. Other details differing them from standard Detective Specials and an easy way to identify one is that they will often have smooth triggers, a smooth top strap, and a "skinny" 1-9/16" square butt. Interestingly, many also have a 'fouling cup' on the underside of the top strap where the barrel meets the frame. Also, because these were a special run of guns, Colt took a future serial number range and allocated them for these new short-barreled revolvers. They will almost always serial number to 1928 even though they are from 1926-1927. As always though, with Colt, nothing is definite, but these are the average and most common traits of a Pre-Detective.

Even with all of that said, there is still a fairly blurred line between what is officially considered a 2" Police Positive Special versus a Detective Special, due to the fact that Colt was never great at leaving exact records, and they never listed when they started producing the Detective Special as its own model compared to when they stopped producing 2" Police Positive Specials as factory special order items. There's a lot of overlap in production between the two, and speaking with Paul at Colt Archives, he shared with me that the official cutoff date they use is 10/21/1927. If it shipped after that date, it would be considered a Detective Special. However, after doing some digging, they also found a ton of matching factory orders that went with guns shipped before & after the date for Detective Specials. So, it's still a bit muddy and unclear, but the best way to identify one is if it has the features I listed above and whether or not it shipped before 10/21/1927.

As an example of how confusing it can get, officially mine is considered a Police Positive Special. It has all of the Pre-Detective features and was shipped 10/18/1927 (three days before the cutoff date), but it does NOT have a factory order associated to it, which is curious for a 2" Police Positive Special, as they were never standard production. In Paul's own words, "With the earlier thinner grip frame diameter, and .38 special marked barrel vs. detective special, I would be inclined to believe this is a pre-detective, that shipped after the detective special was introduced."
_

And finally, after that mouthful of history and information, below is my own personal Pre-Detective.

Unfortunately, the grips aren't the originals and the finish is a bit worn in places, but all else she's in great shape. Originally shipped to Indianapolis in 1927 as a first year Detective Special, she's definitely one of my favourite Colt revolvers. Being a huge fan of early Detective Specials and Indianapolis being my second home, I'd honestly consider it a holy grail gun for me!

 

[Spirit]

Part of the mystery in these revolvers is properly identifying them, as they pass as both Detective Specials and Police Positive Specials, due to the lack of a name on the gun. Most of them get lettered as a Detective Special when in reality they should technically be listed as a 2" Police Positive Special. This was the case for mine, and Paul at the archives was kind enough to send me a new letter to correct the mistake.

 

[Spirit]

Also, I'm not the best photographer, so for your viewing pleasure, I thought I'd include the photos from the original auction since they're better than mine. 😛

 

[Spirit]

Lastly, there have been some great threads about this topic in the past. If you want to continue research & reading, here are some good ones to browse through with additional information I may have forgotten:

1928 2 inch Pre Colt Detective/Police Positve questions and story...

Question about your pre Detective Special frame/ Pics of mine

Found a Very Special "Pre-Detective Special"

Earliest 2” New Service

1926 PPS 2" Pre Detective Special

Pre Detective Special (1)

Pre-Detective Special (2)

Pre Detective Special/2" Police Positive Special

When did the 'Detective Special' begin?

Interesting Colt "Pre-Detective Special"

 

[Spirit]

Keith,
Thanks for starting this thread..and starting me on an information overload!! Here are the pix of my with the best I could do with the serial # being double stamped. It was not uncommon with S&W as I have a model 57 that a 29 can be made out underneath it. I guess when it comes down to it "parts is parts" at the factory. As I mentioned, I did the on-line letter app last night so lets see where this one comes in. And now that I have it out again I see it needs a good cleaning

Haha, you're welcome! I'm happy to have been able to write up what I've learned and gleaned from other threads about these unique little guns. Hopefully you learned something new. And thanks for posting the pictures of yours. I look forward to seeing what your letter says after you get it.

 

[Spirit]

Good information. It is interesting that the "skinny grip frame" guns appear to have the same grip frame as the Police Positives and Banker's Specials, but of course those frames didn't have a large enough cylinder opening to accept a cylinder long enough for the .38 Special cartridge. Maybe Colt's had a small number of frame forgings produced with the smaller grip frame and larger cylinder window before deciding that the larger grip frame was a better idea with the harder recoiling .38 Special round ?

Thanks! And yup, I thought the same thing was interesting. From further research, I believe the 'skinny grip frame' was actually standard production on first generation Police Positive Specials, making them similar to the Police Positives, albeit with a longer cylinder. Even though it's technically not out of place, it always seems weird to see the skinny grip on a .38 Special revolver.

You can see some examples over at ColtAutos.com in their Police Positive and Police Positive Special section.

I believe you're correct though, and Colt later decided that the larger grip frame was better for the hard recoiling .38 Special round, as in 1928, all guns were now produced with the larger frame diameter, along with some other new revisions.

 

[Spirit]

Reposting some stuff from an earlier thread to give a boost to Keith's excellent new thread here on these very interesting revolvers.

The granddaddy of all Detective Special collectibles, the Police Positive Special with the 2” barrel. As our knowledgeable members know, this was the Detective Special at its inception, before it was given its soon-to-be-legendary name the following year. First marketed in 1926 and first catalogued as the Detective Special in 1927 in the A-70-9th catalogue. Characterized by the two-inch barrel; the lack of a model name, manufacturer’s name, and patent date; a barrel roll mark that reads only “38 Special”; and a narrow grip frame (aka “skinny butt”). Estimated total number of guns exhibiting all these characteristics is approximately 100 to 150. One anomaly here is the checkered trigger, which might be a replacement. I believe checkered triggers were first installed on the Detective Special sometime later (additional input welcome). What I usually look for with historical collectibles is some real character because of genuine use, but not abuse. That’s the case here. I rate the finish at about 85%. A few screw heads show some slight buggering but nothing significant. The grips have some nicks and scrapes, and the high points of the checkering have been smoothed from use. Bore and chambers are mirror bright. Unquestionably a daily carry gun, but one that was well cared for. The timings of bolt retraction, cylinder unlocking, and bolt return are excellent. However, final cylinder lockup shows a condition reportedly common with Colts wherein the bolt drops a bit late onto the ramp, and so the hammer reaches full cock slightly before the cylinder locks. Nonetheless, careful observation of this weapon, as well as sound and feel, during dry firing with snap caps indicates complete cylinder lockup on all six chambers before hammer fall, and with the hammer down at the completion of the cycle the gun exhibits the customary Colt “bank vault” lockup. I read in an excellent earlier posting (I believe by dfariswheel) that when these old Colts were shipped from Hartford they were sometimes undertimed and they eventually wore in to proper timing through shooting. This firearm looks as if it was often carried but rarely fired.

This PPS letters to the Citizens Savings Bank in NYC via the H & D Folsom Arms Company, with a shipping date of June 26, 1926. One of the facts I found intriguing, and a bit surprising, in the Colt letter was the shipment of six guns at one time to a single bank. That struck me as being quite an arsenal. So I conducted some research, and what I found proved far more interesting than I’d expected. The building had just been completed in 1924 and, incidentally, still exists and has been designated a New York City landmark. Evidently the bank directors felt that multiple armed guards were really needed, but not simply for protection against ordinary robbers. In fact, the general upsurge in bank robberies wouldn’t occur until the following decade. Rather, in this case the bank’s own customers were a major cause of concern. According to an article on the granting of landmark status to the building in The New York Times from 2011, “. . . the sturdy design was also meant to assure the bank’s officers that they would be safe from their depositors, at a time when the Bowery—a seething jumble of humanity in the perpetual shadow of the Third Avenue el tracks—was regarded as a less than ideal banking location.” In Architectural Record magazine of July 1926, Oliver Whitwell Wilson wrote, “The building is in the midst of an easily excitable population and riots are not unknown. The bank is thus protected against such a mob and could hold out until help arrived.”

The image of a phalanx of bank guards holding the line with their new Colt snubbies, of which this weapon would have been one, against an irate mob of bank depositors sounds like something flashed across the cover of one of the more audacious pulp magazines of the twenties, rather than an expression of the anxieties of a writer in a sober architectural journal, but there it is. Such delightful details don’t ordinarily emerge when one follows up the particulars of a Colt letter, and here they add another layer of flamboyant history to the tale of this classic firearm.
View attachment 722199

My gun (above) in Gary Peer's classic study.
View attachment 722200 View attachment 722201


The dealer to which my gun was shipped.
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The gun's ultimate destination (along with 5 others).
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The bank today.
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Something to bear in mind is that true “skinny butt” 2-inch Police Positive Specials are extremely rare. Gary Peer roughly estimates only about 100-150 were ever manufactured. He told me in correspondence in 2014 that he had seen only 2 (and he said he had "looked hard and long” for them) and bought both. One of them is the one pictured in his book that I purchased from him and posted above. True “skinny butt” PPSs like this one have a grip measuring 1 9/16 inches front to back, whereas the butts of the later, but not skinny-butt, guns measure 1 7/8 inches front to back. See photo below from page 53 of Gary’s book.
View attachment 722202

Thanks for stopping by and adding that wealth of photos and information, Bill! That's perfect. I appreciate the contribution! One of the biggest challenges I had in researching these particular revolvers when I bought mine was having to skim a plethora of various threads for bits and pieces of information, and they weren't always easy to find. Having this be a one-stop-shop to learn about them is really neat.

Also, as for everyone else, thanks for sharing the photos of yours! I love seeing them and look forward to more as they come.

 

[Spirit]

Out of curiosity, has anyone seen any other 2" Police Positive Specials letter without a factory order number? Paul mentioned he didn't think every 2" PPS had a factory order, but it's pretty unusual for this type of revolver. As well, in some of the older threads, I noted JudgeColt mentioned he had never seen one letter without it. I'm curious what it means.

My theory is since my gun is so close to the cutoff date, perhaps the Gus Habich Company ordered a couple of Detective Specials, and Colt sent a 2" Police Positive Special they had on hand due to the fact they were essentially the same gun and to use up old stock. Thus no need for a special factory order, as it would have just been considered a regular production Detective Special at that point.

 

[Spirit]

I have an old Detective special that was marked glad being from the NJ State Police. Unfortunately the hammer was bobbed by somebody along the way. Any recommendations for a good gunsmith to install the correct replacement hammer and to check the timing?

You could give Frank Glenn are ring or shoot him an email. He's located in Arizona and pretty good at getting back to you fairly quick.

Frank Glenn-Glenn Custom Complete Gunsmithing Service Glendale AZ - Contact

He's a top tier gunsmith and an expert with these old Colt revolvers. I'm not sure that he'll have any spare hammers on hand though, so you may have to get one yourself and send it with the gun, which shouldn't be hard as eBay, Jacksfirst, and Numrich are all great sources of extra hammers. He can install it and give it a good run over to make sure everything is timed and proper.

 

[Spirit]

Keith

My nickel gun shown above does not have an order number. I would like to know who Mr. Byerly was and it was also a one gun shipment. This is the earliest nickel 2" Police Positive Special that I have encountered.

Cam.

Cam,

I didn't notice that on first glance, but you're right. Yours doesn't have a factory order number, which is super curious, considering yours is one of the earliest I've seen as well, and the fact it was charged to the Arms Selling Expense directly for Mr. Byerly. Definitely special circumstances that set it apart from the standard 2" Police Positive Special.

In comparison, mine is a fairly late 2" PPS (being 3 days before the cutoff date), and doesn't have the factory order number.

I'd love to know who Mr. Byerly was, too. If you ever find out, don't forget to let us know.

 

[Spirit]

Very nice info, I have exercised my 2nd Amendment rights only recently, later in life. My primary target has been the Colt DS. My local FFL thinks i'm nuts every time i do the paper work on another blue mechanical mini marvel. My current flag ship is a 1933 DS unfired, original box & test target acquired from the son of the original owner. The original owner believed it was his duty to own guns and be firearm competent but without too much zeal. The 2" Police Positive sounds very interesting, something i may pursue also but first i need to call that guy who bought my dear old dad's Colt DS, almost 30 years ago. Anybody have any ideas for my opening ice breaker line when i cold call that guy who owns my dads gun??

I'm right there with you as the Colt Detective Special is also my favorite. Your FFL may think you're nuts, but I think you're a man of taste, haha. I've actually had the same thought and wondered what my FFL thinks that the only guns I ever bring in all are the same little blue revolver.

Your 1933 DS sounds like a true prize, and I am sure you're proud to own it. Especially getting it directly from the original family. Certainly surpasses anything I have! If you have photos, you should share them in the Detective Special Photo thread, or make a new post

If you're a fan of the Detective Special and enjoy early examples, I think you would find the 2" Police Positive Special very much to your liking. Because at heart, that's exactly what it was. A very early Detective Special. They're somewhat scarce but do show up from time to time and worth grabbing if you happen to stumble across one.

Otherwise, I wish you luck on getting your dads Colt back. I don't think a cold call would be too incredibly hard. As others have said, just be honest. "Hey, I hope you're doing well. I just wanted to reach out to you to see if you still have my dad's old DS and were willing to part with it as it has a lot of sentimental value to me?" Worst case is he says no, and then you can always try again later down the line. Best case scenario, you get your dad's gun back.

 

[Spirit]

Just picked up, yesterday, the 1928 Colt D/S that's been sitting at my FFL (for 8-10 months). I will get pictures shortly, but while looking over the new gun first thing i noticed was the sides of the hammer are blued, making me worry the gun was reblued. Next i noticed the trigger is smooth not knurled, maybe replaced? Next item was better, the barrel is only stamped on one side "38 special", OK, that rings a bell. Now i'm checking this thread and i already measured the bottom/butt, that appears kind of narrow 1 9/16", this is looking better. Upon further inspection the fowling cup seems to be present and the top strap is smooth rather than serrated. This early Colt Detective Special seems to be a lucky and accidental find of an even earlier Colt snubby 2" PPS. This gun does not appear to be re-blued but the hammer clearly is blued on the sides. Furthermore each side of the hammer has a circle about 3/32" in diameter of bare metal. The circle is positioned near the top of the hammer and when the hammer is closed the circle looks to be evenly bisected by the frame leaving a half circle exposed on the outside of the gun. The hammer, cylinder release and ejector rod are all knurled, as expected. This gun seems to be a real good acquisition but i was wondering if anybody has any idea on the blued sides with unfinished circles. I'm thinking those circles are there to indicate when the firing pin is wearing out, any other ideas?

Based off the checklist you went through, it 100% sounds like you have a 2" Police Positive Special, aka Pre-Detective Special. That's really cool you were able to use my write-up to go through and check yours against it to figure out what it was. Funny enough, I feel like that's usually how it goes. Someone thinks they're buying a first year Detective Special, and later find out it's actually a 2" PPS, in which case, in your scenario, that's an awesome and lucky find. Congratulations on your acquisition.

As for the circles you speak of, I honestly am not sure what they are, but I do believe they are meant to be there. Both my 1936 DS and 1927 PPS both have a very faint circle on both sides of the hammer near the top, that when the hammer is closed, is somewhat bisected outside of the gun. You have to look real close to see them, though, and otherwise they would go unnoticed. I imagine you're seeing yours due to the fact it looks bare to you compared to the blued sides of the hammer, but as for the purpose of the circles, I couldn't tell you.

If you want my guess, it might be a pin that holds the firing pin in the hammer. When it's inserted correctly and polished, it appears almost seamless. That's just speculation, but if your hammer was re-blued and the "pin" was re-inserted without being blued, that would explain why it looks like bare metal compared to the blue sides of the hammer.

Outside of that, it still sounds like you made a great score. All the other details are correct, making it a fairly scarce and desirable, early stub-nosed revolver. I look forward to seeing pictures when you get a chance to get them up.

 

[Spirit]

Select for moderation

snakeman99 said:
Lou Eppinger was apparently the recipient of many nickel Pre-War Detective Specials.

Here is another one that was shipped there:

Thanks for sharing, Cam. That Nickel DS with pearl stocks is a beauty. If that statement is true, then clearly Lou Eppinger had excellent taste.

 

[Spirit]

Well, the letter finally landed on this one!! Very interesting start for sure, now I have to track down an old Trooper friend to see if he can shed any light on this. So I guess this is really a "pre" Detective Special! Radicalrod, this may have been in the same shippment.
"Radicalrod, post: 3247373, member: 17384"]
I get only 3 numbers away........mine is 334338 + 3 = 334341 your number

That's a sweet letter. Thanks for sharing, Gunsquirrel. Did you have any idea it was police issued before you sent in for a letter? If not, then I'm sure that was a pleasant surprise! Definitely cool with a lot of history.

Not that it matters a great deal, but Colt Archives seems to have made the mistake again of mis-identifying the name on the letter by marking it as a Detective Special when it should be a 2" Police Positive Special (as per the shipment date and factory order number). If you shoot Paul an email, he'll send you a new letter free of cost with the proper gun model listed. Nevertheless, it certainly is a true "pre" Detective Special, so congrats.

 

[Spirit]

Here's a photo

Found this letter still looking for the gun pic

Here's a photo of Rod's gun with the letter from another thread he made. Wanted to share it here to update the thread, as earlier he found the letter but not the gun.

Also, I noticed something interesting about this gun but didn't want to hijack Rod's thread with my questions.

Basically, although it's named as a Detective Special, it has all of the features of a Pre-Detective (2" barrel, .38 Special stamp, smooth trigger, etc), except that they requested the wide grip frame whereas Pre-Detectives normally had the narrow frame.

What makes this weird is it shipped a month after the Detective Special was introduced. The Detective Special by default had a 2" barrel and the wide grip frame. Why did someone go out of their way to special order a Police Positive Special with a 2" barrel and wide grip frame when Colt was already selling the exact same gun as a regular production model? That's the mystery. I know when Colt transitioned things, it was never very clean or succinct, but this one seems odd. Curious if anyone has any theories. My only guess is they were using up old parts, but it's beyond me.

 

[Spirit]

Just thought I'd share some photos from a recently ended auction featuring a 2" Police Positive Special. Hammer Price was $1,200.

 

[Spirit]

Nice, that’s a good buy.

I didn't personally win the auction, but I agree. It was a great buy for a hard to find revolver. All original and comes with the letter too.