The Pre-Detective Special / 2" Police Positive Special

DoubleAction.38 said:

Kwill, very interesting. I had contact with Eppinger about this one and while they have some records they couldn’t find anything on this one. Perhaps Van Allen is the one who that this one replated. Do you have the Smith? Thanks

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Arizona Bill said:

Reposting some stuff from an earlier thread to give a boost to Keith's excellent new thread here on these very interesting revolvers.

The granddaddy of all Detective Special collectibles, the Police Positive Special with the 2” barrel. As our knowledgeable members know, this was the Detective Special at its inception, before it was given its soon-to-be-legendary name the following year. First marketed in 1926 and first catalogued as the Detective Special in 1927 in the A-70-9th catalogue. Characterized by the two-inch barrel; the lack of a model name, manufacturer’s name, and patent date; a barrel roll mark that reads only “38 Special”; and a narrow grip frame (aka “skinny butt”). Estimated total number of guns exhibiting all these characteristics is approximately 100 to 150. One anomaly here is the checkered trigger, which might be a replacement. I believe checkered triggers were first installed on the Detective Special sometime later (additional input welcome). What I usually look for with historical collectibles is some real character because of genuine use, but not abuse. That’s the case here. I rate the finish at about 85%. A few screw heads show some slight buggering but nothing significant. The grips have some nicks and scrapes, and the high points of the checkering have been smoothed from use. Bore and chambers are mirror bright. Unquestionably a daily carry gun, but one that was well cared for. The timings of bolt retraction, cylinder unlocking, and bolt return are excellent. However, final cylinder lockup shows a condition reportedly common with Colts wherein the bolt drops a bit late onto the ramp, and so the hammer reaches full cock slightly before the cylinder locks. Nonetheless, careful observation of this weapon, as well as sound and feel, during dry firing with snap caps indicates complete cylinder lockup on all six chambers before hammer fall, and with the hammer down at the completion of the cycle the gun exhibits the customary Colt “bank vault” lockup. I read in an excellent earlier posting (I believe by dfariswheel) that when these old Colts were shipped from Hartford they were sometimes undertimed and they eventually wore in to proper timing through shooting. This firearm looks as if it was often carried but rarely fired.

This PPS letters to the Citizens Savings Bank in NYC via the H & D Folsom Arms Company, with a shipping date of June 26, 1926. One of the facts I found intriguing, and a bit surprising, in the Colt letter was the shipment of six guns at one time to a single bank. That struck me as being quite an arsenal. So I conducted some research, and what I found proved far more interesting than I’d expected. The building had just been completed in 1924 and, incidentally, still exists and has been designated a New York City landmark. Evidently the bank directors felt that multiple armed guards were really needed, but not simply for protection against ordinary robbers. In fact, the general upsurge in bank robberies wouldn’t occur until the following decade. Rather, in this case the bank’s own customers were a major cause of concern. According to an article on the granting of landmark status to the building in The New York Times from 2011, “. . . the sturdy design was also meant to assure the bank’s officers that they would be safe from their depositors, at a time when the Bowery—a seething jumble of humanity in the perpetual shadow of the Third Avenue el tracks—was regarded as a less than ideal banking location.” In Architectural Record magazine of July 1926, Oliver Whitwell Wilson wrote, “The building is in the midst of an easily excitable population and riots are not unknown. The bank is thus protected against such a mob and could hold out until help arrived.”

The image of a phalanx of bank guards holding the line with their new Colt snubbies, of which this weapon would have been one, against an irate mob of bank depositors sounds like something flashed across the cover of one of the more audacious pulp magazines of the twenties, rather than an expression of the anxieties of a writer in a sober architectural journal, but there it is. Such delightful details don’t ordinarily emerge when one follows up the particulars of a Colt letter, and here they add another layer of flamboyant history to the tale of this classic firearm.
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My gun (above) in Gary Peer's classic study.
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The dealer to which my gun was shipped.
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The gun's ultimate destination (along with 5 others).
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The bank today.
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Something to bear in mind is that true “skinny butt” 2-inch Police Positive Specials are extremely rare. Gary Peer roughly estimates only about 100-150 were ever manufactured. He told me in correspondence in 2014 that he had seen only 2 (and he said he had "looked hard and long” for them) and bought both. One of them is the one pictured in his book that I purchased from him and posted above. True “skinny butt” PPSs like this one have a grip measuring 1 9/16 inches front to back, whereas the butts of the later, but not skinny-butt, guns measure 1 7/8 inches front to back. See photo below from page 53 of Gary’s book.
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Spirit said:

I'm right there with you as the Colt Detective Special is also my favorite. Your FFL may think you're nuts, but I think you're a man of taste, haha. I've actually had the same thought and wondered what my FFL thinks that the only guns I ever bring in all are the same little blue revolver.

Your 1933 DS sounds like a true prize, and I am sure you're proud to own it. Especially getting it directly from the original family. Certainly surpasses anything I have! If you have photos, you should share them in the Detective Special Photo thread, or make a new post

If you're a fan of the Detective Special and enjoy early examples, I think you would find the 2" Police Positive Special very much to your liking. Because at heart, that's exactly what it was. A very early Detective Special. They're somewhat scarce but do show up from time to time and worth grabbing if you happen to stumble across one.

Otherwise, I wish you luck on getting your dads Colt back. I don't think a cold call would be too incredibly hard. As others have said, just be honest. "Hey, I hope you're doing well. I just wanted to reach out to you to see if you still have my dad's old DS and were willing to part with it as it has a lot of sentimental value to me?" Worst case is he says no, and then you can always try again later down the line. Best case scenario, you get your dad's gun back.

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Gunsquirrel said:

I'm in the process of tracking down my 1st gun, Colt Trooper that I bought in 1978 and had to let go with a Sig P225 from 1984 when I got laid off in 1989. I called the guy who bought it from me and actually got it back cheaper than what he paid me (I keep good records). The sig was in the same excellent condition I sold it to him in and he still had the box and papers. The call started with "hey Steve, by chance you still have the Sig and are you interested in selling it?" Best they can say is.....No..Good luck and let us know.

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Spirit said:

Hi all. Some time ago I came into possession of a lovely and mysterious Colt revolver. I never got around to making a post about it, but I have slipped in a photo here and there you may have seen. We got talking about these unique revolvers in the DS photo section, so I decided to finally make that post. It's been a while since we had a good thread about these curious revolvers, and there is a chance a few members here don't even know they exist, so I'd love to shed light on them. As well, if you have any information or photos of your own, feel free to share! I'd love to see and hear from everyone.

Some history:
For those that don't know, these are often referred to as a Pre-Detective Special, although more correctly they are a 2" Police Positive Special. They are properly the 'patriarch' of the snub-nose family, and one of the only guns Colt ever made that doesn't have a name or patent information anywhere on it.

So what exactly is a Pre-Detective Special? As the collector given nickname would suggest, it is the model that immediately preceded the Colt Detective Special. In 1926, the Detroit Police Department and a couple of others wanted to arm their plainclothes detectives with a powerful, compact revolver, but no such thing was commercially available. There were short barreled revolvers, but nothing quite like what they were looking for. So, as Colt is famous for doing, they built a gun to fit the need. In reality, they took their already popular Police Positive Special revolver, produced a new 2" barrel, and began to fit the same gun frames with the shorter barrel.

Immediately the gun proved a huge success, not only with the police, but civilian market too. So much so that around mid year of 1927 (I believe May), Colt began to market this revolver as its own model, coining the famous name, the Colt Detective Special, after the men that used them.

Apart from being the forerunners of the snub nose family, what makes these early type Detective Specials particularly unique are their features. Other than just the name, they stand out from your average Detective Special. They were produced from 1926-1927 on special order before the Detective Special name came into use, so the barrels are simply hand-stamped ".38 Special" and they have no patent information on the reverse. Other details differing them from standard Detective Specials and an easy way to identify one is that they will often have smooth triggers, a smooth top strap, and a "skinny" 1-9/16" square butt. Interestingly, many also have a 'fowling cup' on the underside of the top strap where the barrel meets the frame. Also, because these were a special run of guns, Colt took a future serial number range and allocated them for these new short-barreled revolvers. They will almost always serial number to 1928 even though they are from 1926-1927. As always though, with Colt, nothing is definite, but these are the average and most common traits of a Pre-Detective.

Even with all of that said, there is still a fairly blurred line between what is officially considered a 2" Police Positive Special versus a Detective Special, due to the fact that Colt was never great at leaving exact records, and they never listed when they started producing the Detective Special as its own model compared to when they stopped producing 2" Police Positive Specials as factory special order items. There's a lot of overlap in production between the two, and speaking with Paul at Colt Archives, he shared with me that the official cutoff date they use is 10/21/1927. If it shipped after that date, it would be considered a Detective Special. However, after doing some digging, they also found a ton of matching factory orders that went with guns shipped before & after the date for Detective Specials. So, it's still a bit muddy and unclear, but the best way to identify one is if it has the features I listed above and whether or not it shipped before 10/21/1927.

As an example of how confusing it can get, officially mine is considered a Police Positive Special. It has all of the Pre-Detective features and was shipped 10/18/1927 (three days before the cutoff date), but it does NOT have a factory order associated to it, which is curious for a 2" Police Positive Special, as they were never standard production. In Paul's own words, "With the earlier thinner grip frame diameter, and .38 special marked barrel vs. detective special, I would be inclined to believe this is a pre-detective, that shipped after the detective special was introduced."
_

And finally, after that mouthful of history and information, below is my own personal Pre-Detective.

Unfortunately, the grips aren't the originals and the finish is a bit worn in places, but all else she's in great shape. Originally shipped to Indianapolis in 1927 as a first year Detective Special, she's definitely one of my favourite Colt revolvers. Being a huge fan of early Detective Specials and Indianapolis being my second home, I'd honestly consider it a holy grail gun for me!
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thecoltguy said:

Select for moderation

snakeman99 said:
Lou Eppinger was apparently the recipient of many nickel Pre-War Detective Specials.

Here is another one that was shipped there:

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Spirit said:

Based off the checklist you went through, it 100% sounds like you have a 2" Police Positive Special, aka Pre-Detective Special. That's really cool you were able to use my write-up to go through and check yours against it to figure out what it was. Funny enough, I feel like that's usually how it goes. Someone thinks they're buying a first year Detective Special, and later find out it's actually a 2" PPS, in which case, in your scenario, that's an awesome and lucky find. Congratulations on your acquisition.

As for the circles you speak of, I honestly am not sure what they are, but I do believe they are meant to be there. Both my 1936 DS and 1927 PPS both have a very faint circle on both sides of the hammer near the top, that when the hammer is closed, is somewhat bisected outside of the gun. You have to look real close to see them, though, and otherwise they would go unnoticed. I imagine you're seeing yours due to the fact it looks bare to you compared to the blued sides of the hammer, but as for the purpose of the circles, I couldn't tell you.

If you want my guess, it might be a pin that holds the firing pin in the hammer. When it's inserted correctly and polished, it appears almost seamless. That's just speculation, but if your hammer was re-blued and the "pin" was re-inserted without being blued, that would explain why it looks like bare metal compared to the blue sides of the hammer.

Outside of that, it still sounds like you made a great score. All the other details are correct, making it a fairly scarce and desirable, early stub-nosed revolver. I look forward to seeing pictures when you get a chance to get them up.

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JimmyH said:

Interesting theory on the round circles, i'm going to see if i can find an illustrated and or exploded schematic of the DS to see if you are correct. I hope the blueing on the sides of the hammer can be explained, the gun definitely looks to be the original worn finish even showing a couple of spots with minor pitting. The finish also shows wear consistent with the old holster that came with the gun. Lucky for me i read your thread, otherwise i may not know what i just bought, Thanks, will get pictures today JimmyH

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Gunsquirrel said:

Well, the letter finally landed on this one!! Very interesting start for sure, now I have to track down an old Trooper friend to see if he can shed any light on this. So I guess this is really a "pre" Detective Special! Radicalrod, this may have been in the same shippment.
"Radicalrod, post: 3247373, member: 17384"]
I get only 3 numbers away........mine is 334338 + 3 = 334341 your number

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Spirit said:

That's a sweet letter. Thanks for sharing, Gunsquirrel. Did you have any idea it was police issued before you sent in for a letter? If not, then I'm sure that was a pleasant surprise! Definitely cool with a lot of history.

Not that it matters a great deal, but Colt Archives seems to have made the mistake again of mis-identifying the name on the letter by marking it as a Detective Special when it should be a 2" Police Positive Special (as per the shipment date and factory order number). If you shoot Paul an email, he'll send you a new letter free of cost with the proper gun model listed. Nevertheless, it certainly is a true "pre" Detective Special, so congrats.

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