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I am very disappointed, and have never experienced anything quite like this before.
It's called greed, and lack of personal integrity. -- A person's moral character manifest's it's self in many ways. In this case you were the mark. -- In your earlier post you stated 'lesson learned", I think you have. -- This business is known for sharks -- Never feed a shark, you will probably become his lunch. Good luck in your future endeavors, I hope it hasn't soured you on the world of collectible firearms.
 

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Now after reading the entire thread I do have a few comments.. First good on you PA for not mentioning a dealer name… This is a forum for sharing experiences but it is not a place for a blood bath or a hanging… If Marc screwed you again I am very sorry for your experience; however I will put myself in Marc's shoes for just a moment and assume there is more to the story. PA I am not questioning your honesty or integrity simply playing devil's advocate for a moment..

Since Marc is exposed now everyone wants a statement and once done a witch hunt will follow.. Did Marc do a bad thing here. It sure as heck sounds like it but if I was in his shoes and there is a different spin I would say nothing. Why? Because you cannot defend a negative.. He would be forced to defend himself and non would believe him because everyone has crucified him already… No need for me as "deep pockets" to say I buy lots of guns but I do not cheat anyone in the process. I have been taken but I have had better luck than mistakes thank the stars.. I will not take advantage of a person that doesn't know true value (unless it is a dealer sale with a fixed number - the only exception). Point being we have a choice - we choose to be honorable or we have no integrity.

I will speak as a past customer of Keystone (I bought a fabulous 357 Nickel from him and the sale was no problem). Marc if you screwed this guy correct and right a wrong.. If you have done nothing you need not explain but I will say as a customer you need to clean this mess up.. Me personally I have a three dig python - a beautiful example 3xx. I would throw it in the ocean before screwing someone over. Please contact this man and whatever is needed for him to say the situation is resolved is my best advice… From what I have read PAhunter sounds very clear and reasonable… Please clean this up…


I disagree, no one has crucified anyone as far as I can tell and under the circumstances put forth in this thread, giving a "free pass" to the dealer is IMO not an acceptable outcome.

I see no malice in anything PAHunter has posted and do not believe he started this post to badmouth anyone. If so, he would have mentioned the "esteemed dealer" by name from the beginning. Notice that five pages into this dialogue and he still had not dropped anyone's name, only after a 3rd party did so did the other player become known.

I have had similar experiences with both gun and car guys. Its one thing to get deceived by an obscure individual but when it happens and someone who is running a business is involved Id like to hear the full story from both individuals. Especially when one party uses this public forum to promote their business.

I also don't agree in blaming the OP, sure he may have been naive, but remember he was dealing with someone who has a large presence on this site and probably felt he was safe vs dealing with a total stranger. $2500 is a lot of money and I understand his hesitation in making a purchase without having complete confidence.

Lets not be so quick to give a free pass to one party while chastising the other for simply being naive. Lets face it, we were all naive once....

As the old adage goes, "fool me once shame on you"......
 

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Well said Dalfort - this post has bothered me and you are 100% correct; if people use this forum to do business or promote their business then the everyday consumer should be able to voice their concerns and leave feedback. To me the OP trusted someone and did no wrong. Not sure if there was a mis-communication or not. Would love to see this discussion on FB.
 

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Well said Dalfort - this post has bothered me and you are 100% correct; if people use this forum to do business or promote their business then the everyday consumer should be able to voice their concerns and leave feedback. To me the OP trusted someone and did no wrong. Not sure if there was a mis-communication or not. Would love to see this discussion on FB.


2 sides to every story but its kinda hard to be objective when one party chooses not to engage for whatever reason.

To be honest, I'm kinda surprised by the apathy displayed in this thread...
 

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2 sides to every story but its kinda hard to be objective when one party chooses not to engage for whatever reason.

To be honest, I'm kinda surprised by the apathy displayed in this thread...
The silence could mean that there aren't two sides to the story.
 

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I think it's a shame that the person who got took is the one receiving most of the blame. Especially when the OP mentioned that this esteemed seller "offered" to go look at it for him. The OP did not ask him, he offered, supposedly. So it is the OPs fault because he trusted an "esteemed seller" who used to get almost as many plugs on this forum as Colt does. Sounds naive.

Whoever mentioned free pass is exactly right. He is still an esteemed dealer and people are still recommending business to him in the classifieds. This hobby reminds me of H.S. and the popular kids. If you got the money to blow on high end items here, then you are popular and part of the clique. We all know how cliques like to stick up for each other. Which is witnessed all over this forum including this thread. I have a whole list of people I will never deal with and sadly they are all considered "esteemed".

I really liked this individual when I first joined and he helped me out on an occasion or two. But after all the things I have seen in my time as a member on here, I have seen way too many greedy actions, and dishonest behavior by numerous individuals in an attempt to capitalize on this hype for every last cent.

The true esteemed Colt collectors are the ones who don't deal for profit and the ones who don't participate in "value" threads. As for esteemed dealers, I would almost call that an oxymoron. I only know of one or two that I might be consider respectable and trustworthy.
 

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PAhunter, I too am new to this Colt Forum, but been around the block a few times.
Not to say I haven't lost a few deals, but like to think I gain more than I lose. Perhaps
my words will be of small consolation to this particular Python, but I do believe that
what goes around comes around. Some deal has your name on it, and it's eventually
going to "find you".

Karma is a good thing. Karma can also be a B____. I try to not piss Karma off, OR be on her bad side.

On the other side of this same coin, I have no affiliation with the "esteemed" dealer, but it sure would be nice to hear from this dealer and his version of the story, assuming it is different from PAhunter's. Although I doubt this dealer would come forth if his version matches that of PAhunter's. Right now, to me, PAhunter has the credibility, and Karma is starting to look twice at the "esteemed dealer". Personally, I could never do what it appears this dealer did. Sometimes, that extra buck in the pocket just ain't worth it, at least for me. I personally like to be able to sleep at night with a clear and clean conscience.

Best to you for 2016.
 

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Ok so on a Saturday I receive a call from someone local and explains he was at a gun show that was very close to me and there was a 8" Stainless Python there and had a few questions about condition and value. After talking with him for awhile I tell him that $2600 is a screaming deal and that he should purchase it immediately. He says that maybe he will return the next day to buy the gun but was unsure given the condition of the gun. I told him I was close and that perhaps I would make it to the show that afternoon and that we would touch base the next day. Later that afternoon I was able to get out of the shop and made the short drive (15 minutes) to the show and found a 8" E Nickel Python. We spoke again either that night or the next morning and discussed the Python where I gave him my opinion on the condition and value of the gun. He decided to pass on the gun. The reason I did this is we discussed possibly doing some work to the gun for him.

The following day I started to receive calls again from the local fellow telling me there was a 3 digit Python at a show that was in PA but I have no idea where the show was, I didn't bother to ask. The asking price was $2500 for the gun but he could get it for $2300, I advised him that if authentic he should once again buy it immediately. We discussed at length the details he should be looking for, the correct hollow under lug, front sight should be flat profiled, and the rear sight with the timing marks. I told this gentleman that I would be on standby for him when he went to purchase the Python just to give me a heads up when he was going so that I knew to keep my phone on high alert so he could ask any questions he may of had. We ended the conversation on that day with a green light to buy it and he would let me know how it all worked out.

The next time we spoke was a day or perhaps two later (I am unclear) and the buyer had more questions about the Python. We discussed many of the things we discussed the day before as a recap and we also spoke about the cost of a correct set of first generation grips to make the gun more original, it wore a set of aftermarket rubber grips. The buyer was still uncertain if he was going to go and purchase the gun from the dealer as this was a relatively large purchase for him and wanted to be sure about what he was buying. He then explained to me he was going out of town for the week on a business trip and was leaving either that afternoon or the next morning. He explained to me that the dealer had other inquiries to purchase it and while he loosely was holding the gun for the day he thought the dealer may sell it to another interested party. I now for the first time felt like I wanted to inject myself as a buyer it was quite obvious that he was struggling with the decision and now it appeared to me that if he left town for the week without making a move the Python would be sold to another buyer. I had been encouraging him to purchase it up to this point and I never once asked for any information it was his deal. I now made an offer to him that was very clear, I said "If you decide that you will lose the deal or you are just not comfortable buying this Python and it will be sold to someone else, please pass the sellers information along and I will purchase the gun, I would like to give it to my daughter if the condition is high enough". I told him to contact the dealer to see if it was still going to be available at the end of the trip and once again if the deal was going to fall apart I wanted to step in. He quickly said that he was more comfortable with me buying the gun reminding me again that it was a lot of money for him to make a mistake and that I was the expert and not he. He then provided me with the name and phone number of the dealer who had the gun for sale, the gun was approximately 1.5 hours from my home. He had said during the conversation that "Maybe we can work something out" and asked me if I would be open to him visiting the shop after I made the purchase to see the gun. I said that I would be ok with him coming to the shop we had talked about him buying another Python perhaps a higher condition piece as the condition of the 3 digit was not exactly to his liking. We closed the conversation saying that he would be in touch after his trip and see how things went. I contacted the seller and made arraignments for the next day to cover the shop and went to the sellers home and made the purchase. While I was there the dealer said he had other guns for me to inspect for this gentleman as he was interested in those as well. I looked at a NIB 1911 that was in great condition and told the dealer I would advise him my assessment of the gun and I believe one other that was no box and condition wasn't so hot.

Some days after making the purchase I received a call from the gentleman wanting to know how the transaction went. I told him I purchased it and what my thoughts were on the gun. I told him I had already fitted it up with a nice set of 1st generation full checker grips and gave it a good wax job. He again said that he had interest in visiting the shop and again mentioned perhaps we could "Work something out". I said I would be ok with him coming to the shop for a visit and taking a look at some guns including the 3 digit. We again talked about other Pythons that I had available that were in higher condition. We did not set up a day or time nor did I provide him with my address. That weekend we were away as a family and I believe he called multiple times that weekend but I did not take any calls from him nor anyone. Several weeks went by without any contact from the gentleman before he did call and leave a voicemail that I did receive and I tried to return the call. I believe he left another number to call but I did not call the 2nd number I just return dialed the one he called from (I was driving). I believe another 2 weeks went by with no contact but then he called on a weekend and left a voicemail when I was unavailable, I was on a Archery hunt (with a Forum member). I did not return this call.

The next thing that happened was this thread. The "Esteemed Dealer" posts started to fly and he says on November 8th I'm taking advantage of a new collector??? How did I take advantage of anything other than the opportunity that presented itself to me? I'm not here to throw him under the bus I believe the posters fueled the flames a lot more than he actually did. He did try to connect a few times and it didn't happen. Was I hiding from him? Nope. Would I have set up the time for him to stop by the shop? Yep. I do want to make it clear that I do not feel this is his firearm. If we were to discuss a reasonable purchase price that I felt compensated me for the time and effort (also considering market value of the gun) I made to purchase the firearm and I agreed to it, I would give it to him. It is not the highest condition piece but I feel market value is $4500-$5000. If he wants to give me $2300 that I paid and $700 for the grips (we predetermined that if I were to sell him a set they would be $700 before I made the purchase), sorry I'm not a pigeon service. I don't take a day off of work and drive my family around for 3 hours to make purchases for other individuals.

I will accept responsibility for this. I did not go out of my way to contact him to set up a date and time however I have bought and sold several thousand firearms over the last few years and haven't blatantly screwed anyone over yet. I could've picked up the phone and actively pursued a day and time. I figured another call was right around the corner. He called this past Saturday again and I was attending a Christmas dinner with another member and...I missed his call.

Happy Holidays!

Marc
Keystone Arms
 

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Thank you, Marc for responding to this thread. Presenting your side of this issue certainly helps to understand both sides of the situation. No judgement call on my part, to either party involved here.

Knowing how "passionate" we are about our firearms, all I can add is sometimes, with the advise of others, when a good deal comes along, ya just gotta take that leap of faith and buy it, or follow your "gut feeling" and walk away! There are a lot of people out there looking for that same deal. Hesitation opens many doors to many other people. Not wanting to be "taken advantage of" is wise. Still, there comes a time to "pull the trigger" (sorry, pun intended) or move along to something else.

Personally, from each side of this saga as presented, I honestly can't lay "blame" to either party. This thread was started in mid September. Right now, 3-1/2 months later, a lot of water went under the bridge. Thus, this saga also presents the principle that Time is usually of the Essence, and that Communication is paramount, while respecting the OTHER party (from each side) with regards to their time, their commitments and their help. Life gets in the way of a lot of things. Doing one's due diligence can often times clear up misunderstandings between parties. Walking a mile in the other guy's shoes creates a pause in thought to consider his perspective, outside of our own.

We live and learn. Again, no judgement call on either party involved here, just my $0.02...
Thanks again to Marc/Keystone for replying to this thread.
 

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I disagree, no one has crucified anyone as far as I can tell and under the circumstances put forth in this thread, giving a "free pass" to the dealer is IMO not an acceptable outcome.

I see no malice in anything PAHunter has posted and do not believe he started this post to badmouth anyone. If so, he would have mentioned the "esteemed dealer" by name from the beginning. Notice that five pages into this dialogue and he still had not dropped anyone's name, only after a 3rd party did so did the other player become known.

I have had similar experiences with both gun and car guys. Its one thing to get deceived by an obscure individual but when it happens and someone who is running a business is involved Id like to hear the full story from both individuals. Especially when one party uses this public forum to promote their business.

I also don't agree in blaming the OP, sure he may have been naive, but remember he was dealing with someone who has a large presence on this site and probably felt he was safe vs dealing with a total stranger. $2500 is a lot of money and I understand his hesitation in making a purchase without having complete confidence.

Lets not be so quick to give a free pass to one party while chastising the other for simply being naive. Lets face it, we were all naive once....

As the old adage goes, "fool me once shame on you"......
Dalfort,
I never suggested any malice in what Pa was saying - on the contrary he appears to be accurate and honorable.. This being said some forum members take any opportunity to crucify. What I am saying is there are always two sides and again the buyer has to beware and take precautions. It is a very ugly lesson; nevertheless coming from Los Angeles there are many snake pits and several more in the gun world.. Second, if we are going to swim with the sharks as buyers we must learn to survive in the waters. Insofar as blame - as men we take responsibility when we trust someone and our judgment is inaccurate. Pa understands and fully accepts this given his responses.. I for one have been fooled more than once and there is plenty of shame to go around.. :)
 

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I think you misread that
I think what Ive misread the most here is how everyone wanted to drag a man under water that's an "Esteemed Dealer" here with over 3700 post, bent over backwards to help anyone that has ever asked for help. Keep pushing guys and you'll run off one of the greastest assets to this website. So far your doing a great job at it. Big thumbs up to you all
 

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I think what Ive misread the most here is how everyone wanted to drag a man under water that's an "Esteemed Dealer" here with over 3700 post, bent over backwards to help anyone that has ever asked for help. Keep pushing guys and you'll run off one of the greastest assets to this website. So far your doing a great job at it. Big thumbs up to you all
Too many internet ninja's....There are always two sides to a story, and I was also wondering why so many seemed to be jumping to conclusions without all the facts.
 

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Too many internet ninja's....There are always two sides to a story, and I was also wondering why so many seemed to be jumping to conclusions without all the facts.

Yes..... but what are the actual facts?? Did the OP ever say " I pass .... go ahead and buy it" . Did the buyer say " Let me know if you pass because I want to buy it" Too much gray area here. No accusations.... just not worth talking about without the REAL facts.
 

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Discussion Starter #99
Too many internet ninja's....There are always two sides to a story, and I was also wondering why so many seemed to be jumping to conclusions without all the facts.
Not exactly all the facts. While I never intended to drag this out into a public forum, or discuss the integrity of anyone. We are at this point.

1. Saturday September 12:I did tell Marc about the stainless (turned out to be e-nickel as Marc indicated) Python at another show that was close to him.
2. Sunday September 13. I called Marc to ask if he had a chance to make it to the show and see the Python I was talking about. He said he did and it was e-nickel, not stainless, and not worth what the guy was asking. We discussed some of the guns he has that I may be interested in.
3.My cousin attended a different local show on Sunday September 13, and told me about the three digit Python he had seen, and sent me pictures, and said the seller wanted $2500 (See my first post on this subject). I got the seller's name and number from my cousin, and contacted him late Sunday afternoon. The seller indicated that he indeed wanted $2500 and also had someone interested in the gun. (I never made an offer nor talked offers with the seller where Marc indicated I was getting it for $2300). The seller invited me to his house that night to take a look at it. I was preparing to head out of town to San Antonio on business and could not make it, and told the seller this.
4. Monday September 14. I call Marc and tell him about the three digit Python. He saw my post about it and asked me the details. I told Marc that I was heading out of town for a week, and was unable to go to the sellers house to look in person, plus, I am no expert, and would not know what I was looking at anyway. I told Marc where the seller was located, and he said, he knew the area well, as he had done previous business there in another business venture he used to be in. Marc then volunteered to go and look at it for me, and if he thought it legit, would make an offer. I called the seller to ask if it would be ok with him if I had someone with a whole lot more knowledge than I meet him at his house sometime Monday afternoon and perhaps make a deal on my behalf. The seller said yes, no problem. I call Marc back with the seller's name and address and said that the seller would be expecting his call. (I want to say at this point, I really appreciated Marc doing this). I asked Marc to please call me after he saw the gun to let me know what he thought, and if he bought it, and if so I would deal with him on a fair price, given his time to go and look at the gun. He already knew it had replacement grips and said that he has some first generation grips he would sell me.
5. Tuesday September 15: After no call from Marc, I call him from San Antonio and ask what he thought of the Python, and if he bought it. Marc told me it was kind of rough and had some discoloring in the blue, and the wrong grips (which we already knew). Marc told me that he got it for $2300, and to call him once I returned from San Antonio to set up a time for me to look at it and decide if I wanted it with the grips he would sell me, or I can look at other better condition Pythons he had. He said that if I didn't in fact want the three digit gun, no problem he would put it away for his daughter. I thanked him and we hung up.
6. I come back from San Antonio on Thursday September 17, and began trying to contact Marc to set up a time. No answer, no call back.
7. Friday September 18: Heading to Ohio to the OGCA show in Wilmington, Ohio. Try calling Marc while on my way. No answer, no call back.
8. Saturday September 19. At the OGCA show. try calling Marc from the show: no answer, no call back.
9. Sunday September 20. Come back to PA from show. Allow a few days go by. Try calling again. No answer, no call back.
10. Forum members asking me what happened to the three digit Python. I respond about it being a long story and believe it or not, still trying to see it, let alone get it.
11. From later September until now, made numerous attempts to contact Marc, via phone, email, PM. no answer, no call back.
12. I felt I was borderline stalking and finally concluded that Marc has no intention of honoring our agreement.

13. Lesson Learned: I should have gone to buy it on my own or, had my cousin buy it when he saw it.

I really hated to drag this out into a public forum, and I still believe Marc to be an expert in his field, and an asset to the Colt collecting community for his knowledge.

Happy New Year to all.
 

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Yes..... but what are the actual facts?? Did the OP ever say " I pass .... go ahead and buy it" . Did the buyer say " Let me know if you pass because I want to buy it" Too much gray area here. No accusations.... just not worth talking about without the REAL facts.
Fact 1) OP found a gun and posted about it here
Fact 2) EVERYYYYYYYONEEEEEE said buy it
Fact 3) OP did not buy it
Fact 4) Someone else did

15 years ago I met this awesome girl at a bar. I, being the gentleman that I am, asked her about her family, her dreams, her education and all sorts of sweet things. For HOURS. My buddy Jason came in, whispered some nonsense in her ear and took her home. Welcome to the real world, everyone get your big boy pants on and let's move on.
 
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