I think alot is going to depend on the jurisdiction and the circumstances. Technically, you are probably correct, that if a civilian shoots and kills a civilian it is at least manslaugher and possiby murder. And technically, if you were the shooter this opens you up to some real legal problems. How the police and later the DA react, however, is a matter of local custom and circumstances. In NYC, they may come down on you like a ton of bricks. In Texas, they may give you a medal.

Would someone mind reposting the advice on what you should say/do to the police after a SD shooting? I know this has come up before, but I don't remember it well. Something like saying you will cooperate, you want to talk with your attorney before you say more, and pointing out evidence that the police might otherwise miss.

 

Something like that. I've read: "I was in fear for my life and had to stop a lethal attack against me. I intend to cooperate fully and wish to talk with my attorney at this point."

I think the more immediate question: how do you survive the police rolling up so they don't shoot you as the attacker and/or immediate threat to them? I think even plain-clothes police have a record of being shot a fair number of times by arriving officers at a shooting they have been involved in. I'd say get rid of the gun, put it on the ground as you hear sirens approaching, get your hands up and do everything you are told. Don't talk, just do it. Before, when calling 911, give a specific description of yourself, say that you have a legal weapon. Ask for advice. Then get the cell phone the hell out of your hands before police arrive.

 

I think that first any death investigation is not labelled a "homicide", or "murder" on the initial response. In the event of a MV accident where a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle and dies. The driver of the vehicle is not charged with anything until a complete investigation is conducted. If the investigation reveals that the driver was not at fault, then no charges are filed. Civil complaints are something different.

So, in a shooting where "self defense" is used as a reason for the shooting. After a complete investigation, if charges are warranted then a complaint may be filed. But, if "self defense" was established during the course of the investigation then there are no charges filed. Before any charges can be filed all the facts have to be looked at. The forensic evidence examined, and all the witnesses interviewed. A sharp DA or Prosecutor would not level charges on anybody without having some basis for a complaint.

As for what to say and not to say. I would recommend that if you are involved in a shooting that you refrain from saying anything until you speak to competent council. Those comments about "asking for a lawyer makes you look guilty". Yeah ok, don't believe that garbage. Involved in a shooting your emotions are jacked, and your head is spinning. Trying to answer questions may not be the smartest thing to do right then. You need sometime to relax, and get your head in order before you make a complete statement. In 2 or 3 days you will remember things that you did not on the night of the shooting. Therefore now your statment changes, you don't want that. If it is a righteous shoot the evidence will show that, a good clear statement about what transpired will only bolster the evidence. You can cooperate with the investigation, and still make sure that you protect yourself. Remember you were in fear for your life and the lives of your family. The perp had the means and the opportunity to cause serious bodily injury, and you were left with no choice but to defend yourself/family etc....

 

Best response yet.

 

All of investigations I worked/supervised were labeled as "Death Investigations." The coroner would determine if the death was a homicide, then the prosecutor had the choice of getting an indictment for capital murder, murder, or manslaughter, all of which make up the crime of homicide. However, different states do things differently.

 

How could an intentional shooting resulting in death be Manslaughter? Doesn't Manslaughter involve an unintentional death - like throwing someone down on the pavement in a fight and the person fractures his skull and dies. Your intention was to throw him down, not kill him.

 

Question: Is it Homicide or Murder?

Hi gvf.

This is really not in direct response to your question but I thought it would be interesting to note that ........... while all murders are homicides, not all homicides are murder.

The word Homicide means, "the taking of a human life by another human" the difference, or outcome is determined by the "reason" for the homicide.

Bud

Legal point but it does have to do with guns so I hope it can stay on the forum.

Any thoughts, (including that I have this completely wrong)?

 

Yes, exactly.

 

Blademan makes a supreme point. Most folks want to tell their story. That's just human nature. However, when people are involved in a situtation of extremely high stress (taking another life is about as high as it gets), the last thing they should do is to talk to the police. Contrary to popular opinion, the police are not your friends. They are, at best, a disinterested third party; at worst, your adversary. Therefore, it's imperative that you make no statements to them which may implicate you in an investigation which could result in a manslaughter or murder charge. Here's a list of things to do in case you ever get into a shooting situation -

• Dial 911.
• Provide the operator only the following: "There has been a shooting at XXXX YYYYYY Street. Please send police and medical help." If the operator asks what happened, repeat your opening statement: :There has been...". The tape recording is a public record, and could be used against you in a court of law.
• Unless the perpetrator is still a threat, put down your firearm and move away from it. Do not have it in your hands when the police arrive.
• When the police arrive, obey them immediately, and comply with every command. You don't want to become a statistic at this point.
• If the police begin to question you, provide only your name. If they continue to press you for information, state the following: "I do not feel well, and I need to see a doctor and my attorney. Do not answer any further questions. Insist on seeing a doctor at a hospital. If pressed, tell the police you will talk to them after seeing your doctor and your attorney.
• You may be taken into custody after hospital examination. If that happens, do not provide any facts other than necessary - name and address only. Speak only after talking to your attorney.
• Have an attorney versed in gun and shooting laws on speed dial. If you have to pay a small retainer, do it.

You've been involved in a stressful situation that can result in severe physical and mental stress. It's difficult, sometimes impossible, to think clearly. Don't add to the stress by talking.

If you're involved in a shooting, plan on spending at least $10,000 in legal fees. Attorneys are not cheap, but spending years in prison is even more expensive.

 

...
If you're involved in a shooting, plan on spending at least $10,000 in legal fees. Attorneys are not cheap, but spending years in prison is even more expensive.

Excellent summation. Is the $10,000 just to see you thru the investigation? Or does it involve the attorney's efforts subsequently if you are charged?

 

At least in the Texas CHP classes, the advice provided if you the shooter in a SD incident is to say nothing more when the police arrive than your name, followed by the statement "I want to speak with an attorney before making any statement." Also, it may be better if someone other than yourself makes the initial 911 call, again providing nothing beyond basic information such as "someone has been shot at (address), send police and medical assistance." I have taken three such classes, all by off-duty cops.

 

Also, it may be better if someone other than yourself makes the initial 911 call, again providing nothing beyond basic information such as "someone has been shot at (address), send police and medical assistance."

I would caution against this.

Do you really want to provide minimal information, and have the police arrive with you still holding that weapon? Always remember, the police OWN any shooting scene, and they will react to what they see. It will be swift and it will be violent. I would provide the 911 operator with more information than what you've quoted....

 

Guys,besides the excellent advice given,I have a question? How many of you have 50,000 dollars lying around with no use? Probably NONE OF US.United States Concealed Carry Association has Insurance in case the day ever comes.For 279 dollars/year you get 75K in legal coverage + 300 k in defense of a "Wrongful Death Lawsuit".It is worth considering.

 

Hey thanks, I'll check that out.

 

Not speaking to the police at all after a SD shooting is a mistake. You dont have to go into details but be sure to point out any evidence in your favor as it can dissapear and point out witnesses when possible. IF they guy you shot was with friends and they are all singing like canarys ...lies or truth. And you refuse to speak then the police have no other choice than to arrest you. Then let them know you will cooperate completly when you get your wits back and speak to leagle council.

 

I stand by my original post. You are under no obligation to speak with the police, and admit to anything, even if you believe it will help prove your innocence.

There is a video on Youtube which is presented by a professor of law at a law school in Norfolk, VA. Here's a link to it. After watching it, decide for yourself, but this professor puts to bed, once and for all, the theory of admitting anything to the police.

Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1 - YouTube

 

As a big city detective I investigated a couple hundred shooting deaths over 30 years. This is just my take on a response:
1. You SHOULD make the 911 call, you do not want someone like me asking you why you did not. All you have to say as suggested above is that there has been a shooting and you need police and medical help. If you have been the victim of say a home invasion, it is perfectkly OK to state that-but nothing else! Do NOT admit to being the shooter!
2. Put the weapon down in someplace in plain sight, and tell the first responding officer where it is-never-but NEVER keep possession of the weapon as the police arrive.
3. If there is a gunshot person and you know where they are, tell the responding police or medical personnel where they are.
4. Feel and act shaky, this should not be difficult, seasoned cops and military personnel get that way.
5. Ask for medical assistance for yourself, RFN.
6. When asked by anyone what happened, just state you are too shaken up to talk right now. This particularly true for the initial responders, if you tell them the story you are only going to have to repeat it several times to different people as the investigation progresses. This leaves too much time and too many chances for you to make legitimate mistakes which can be used against you.
7. Tell the first responding officer that " my name is------- and I live here"-if the case involves your home. You will get more respect if all the cops know you were defending your home.
8. Know your local political climate, if you live in Chicago, be aware that some prosecutor is going to try to make a meal of you. If you live in Texas, you are better off, probably.
9. Know which lawyer you are going to call beforehand, this is very important.
10. NEVER ask for a public defender, many of them are left wing nut cases, and although most of them are very serious and ethical about representing their clients, you may draw the one who thinks no one should own a gun-ever.
11.Never, but NEVER do anything that will alter evidence. The old story about dragging the body of the BG inside you home when he was shot trying to get in and fell outside, will only get you arrested, and do possibly deadly damage to your defense. Leave everything just as it happened. If it was a good shooting it will not matter where the body is.
12. Actually go to a hospital ER for emotional trauma, talk to the resident shrink on duty-that conversation is privileged. Tell him how distruaght you are about the event. He will probably prescribe a medication that with any luck will prevent you from being interviewed or interrogated for a while-plenty of time to lawyer up. If you can reach and get to your family doctor, so much the better.
13. This one is really important! DO NOT talk to any media, none, nada, nyet, numquam, nay, get the idea? They will try to make you into another Travon Martin killer no matter how right or justified you are. Have someone available to drive you around if possible. This will enable you to be picked up at rear or little used entrances to hospitals, police stations etc-to avoid the above media.
14. Be prepared for the following, some or all, depending on where you live:
a. If your criminal was young, he was an "honor student".
b. A local minister or family member will intone "he wanted to be a doctor and help people".
c. His momma or whoever can be found will say while crying, "my boy wouldn't do that".
d. If your criminal was not young, "he was trying to turn his life around" and several children that he never supported, or maybe even never met will pop up for the media, crying about "daddy".
e. All of the above will be widely publicized, you will have to develop a thick skin.
f. Never try to defend anything said about you in the media, they will cherry pick what you say to make you look bad, or worse, guilty of murder. Hide from the media, they are your worst enemy-ask Zimmerman.
g. Never say you are sorry, even if it seems like the humanitarian thing to do. I am sorry to have killed a couple of BG, but I got good advice, just looked glum about it. Your statement will come back to haunt you in:
f. The civil suit, which will probably be filed unless your state has some serious laws protecting the legal shooter. Your household insurance may pay for this, check on that, and if it does not, get an umbrella policy, they are cheap and worhtwhile-I have had one for 47 years. Never needed it, but it made me feel good.
h. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER discuss the shooting with friends anywhere, at a bar, in any public place, at work, etc., keep your own counsel. Your life could depend on it. Who is your friend today, may not be next month, or next year, remember, there is no statute of limitations on murder in any state that I know of. Talk about the incident only to your lawyer and persons he designates.
Sorry for all the doom and gloom, but I have been there, repeatedly. I have watched good people talk themselves into prison after a good shooting.
And oh yeah, never disparage or deingrate the BG or any group he may belong to, never, not 30 years later, not ever. It can only do you harm. The most successful folks at not getting convicted limit their vocabulary to two words: "who me"?

 

All this information is very informative and something I never considered or thought about. Sounds like good information for any serious encounter involving the police

 

Some years ago, I had a retired detective that worked for me, and his advice to me in that regard was "You don't have to tell any cop s***, and you are a fool if you do."

 

Gentlemen,
I am a former law enforcement professional with over 27 years on the job, working major cases and commanding all facets of criminal investigations. If I had to defend my family with one of my handguns, I would advise the responding police that I will make a complete statement to them once I have recieved some medical attention, and have spoken at length with my lawyer. As I have stated in my prior post, in a righteous shoot all of the physical evidence will point to "self defense" and your statement after you have had a chance to calm down, and go over things in your head before going on tape will only bolster that physical evidence. I am not saying tell the police to go fly a kite, but explaining that you are very shaken, and would like some time to collect yourself before going on the record as to what happened is a reasonable request. Most seasoned police investigators will understand that, even in a police shooting you are given three days to speak to doctors, union rep, lawyer etc.... I have sat on shooting boards where officers were questioned right after the shooting, and their testimony changed a week later because they remembered something that they blocked out after the shooting. It is for these reasons, most police shooting investigations wait a few days before the officer is required to give a complete statement as to what happened. I do not know about Massad, but, I have conducted many investigations into shooting deaths, and I have personally been involved in two police shootings. I can tell you that immediately before and after you have dropped the hammer on somebody everything starts to move in slow motion, and you lose track of time, number of shots fired, etc.... You have to let your mind come back to a stable condition before you start telling anybody what happened. You need to realize that everything that you say to the police will appear in a report later down the road. Clearing yourself of a self defense shooting, might be easier then a civil case later on when someone is using your own words from a police report to take your house. JMHO.

 

Exactly..what i was trying to say! You have to tell them something.

Gentlemen, I am a former law enforcement professional with over 27 years on the job, working major cases and commanding all facets of criminal investigations. If I had to defend my family with one of my handguns, I would advise the responding police that I will make a complete statement to them once I have recieved some medical attention, and have spoken at length with my lawyer. As I have stated in my prior post, in a righteous shoot all of the physical evidence will point to "self defense" and your statement after you have had a chance to calm down, and go over things in your head before going on tape will only bolster that physical evidence. I am not saying tell the police to go fly a kite, but explaining that you are very shaken, and would like some time to collect yourself before going on the record as to what happened is a reasonable request. Most seasoned police investigators will understand that, even in a police shooting you are given three days to speak to doctors, union rep, lawyer etc.... I have sat on shooting boards where officers were questioned right after the shooting, and their testimony changed a week later because they remembered something that they blocked out after the shooting. It is for these reasons, most police shooting investigations wait a few days before the officer is required to give a complete statement as to what happened. I do not know about Massad, but, I have conducted many investigations into shooting deaths, and I have personally been involved in two police shootings. I can tell you that immediately before and after you have dropped the hammer on somebody everything starts to move in slow motion, and you lose track of time, number of shots fired, etc.... You have to let your mind come back to a stable condition before you start telling anybody what happened. You need to realize that everything that you say to the police will appear in a report later down the road. Clearing yourself of a self defense shooting, might be easier then a civil case later on when someone is using your own words from a police report to take your house. JMHO.

 

I have been pulled over for speeding or some other such and I do not say a word to the officer....Most are understanding with it, but once I had a new officer get all pissy with me because I would not talk to him....He was going to pull me out of the car....And I was going to get out and Cooperate 100% but his training officer was very observant and finally stepped in before this new officer made a poor choice, and told his trainee that I do not have to say a word to him. Call me a jerk. but this is how I am.

I fully respect the law and take my lumps when I deserve them, but other than asking for help or reporting a crime......I do not talk to officers.

My pre law classes were taught by a 10 year Former District Attorney. I figured if HE says do not talk to officers unless needed then I will oblige.

 

new officer

Bingo.

Nothing but ego right there.

 

Great info, the next bastard who walks his dog on my yard better have a will. Sorry, just trying to break the mood.