Cozmo you have hit on one of my pet peeves. With thousands of different cartridges in the world why does everyone keep trying to invent one more. The diameter runs between .17 and .50 and the length from the 22 short to the extreme of the 50BMG. If you throw out the BMG then it gets quite a bit shorter. Isn't there enough to chose from already? I fear that even if this ammo shortage settles down the big companies are going to drop a lot of old favorites. They didn't even bother to make hunting ammunition this year. They kept right on with 223 and 9MM as I guess that is where the money is. Shotgun shells are now scarce. Hunting has suffered this year because of it.

In my opinion chambering a gun in 44 magnum that can't handle is asking for big trouble for someone some day.

 

Come on Mike, you've already admitted you seldom shoot what you have. So why would it matter?

Not trying to invent anything. Or even reinvent anything. But I don't mind taking advantage of the cases that are available.

E. Keith wanted a hot/high pressure/high velocity .429", knowing full well the 44 Special was as much as a SAA Colt could handle @ the time. But just like the 44 American, 44 Russian and then the 44 Special. 44 mag is nothing but a longer case built on the original idea of a .429 bullet going back to the short, anemic 44 American. The 44 Magnum that Reminton and S&W came up with just needed the N frame to take the abuse.

44 mag case could just as easily been called the .43 Colt since it fits into the SAA cylinder. Just as the 41 Magnum ( the new 41 Colt?) does.

Bad cartridge design and/or weapon choice to be putting a short round like a 45acp (actually dbly bad with no rim on the 45acp) into a cylinder that will take a cartridge with an OAL of 1.60".

No doubt someone will eventually think a Colt chambered for 44 mag brass is capable of full house 44 loads. But nice thing about that is, it will only happen once.

Fun thing is, 20 minutes with a SAA chambered in 44 Special and a 44 Mag reamer and you're done. Just be careful how you load you 44 mag brass.

The most modern design improvements for the SAA design have been from Uberti. Because the 45 Colt leaves so little steel on the locking bolt slots on the cylinder there is a design flaw there when using modern powders. Uberti simply added some metal to the cylinder. That and a bigger frame window it required added enough strength to the SAA design so it could handle higher pressures with the modern 45 Colt loads and not come part. Uberti, then USFA and now Standard have all followed suit on the bigger cylinder size.

A much, much better answer would have been to ditch the 45 Colt all together in the Colt SAA and use a big bore cartridge designed specifically for modern powders, heavy bullets and the strength inherent in the original design of the Colt sized SAA frame. A properly loaded, full size case in .41 or .43 caliber would accomplish that. Nothing new at all, just old ideas taking advantage of modern technology.

.44 S&W Special (Pet Loads) | Handloader Magazine

 

I've had two uses for .45-Colt. One was Cowboy Action Shooting, just because I wanted something "authentically Olde Weste." I'm perfectly happy with the occasional full-power .45-Colt load, but have no reason to use them in the SAA of any vintage. Black powder or modern, I carefully load below max.
The other use is "real world." I wanted a big bore revolver, popularly embodied in the Model 29 at the time. Thanks to Dirty Harry, those were unavailable except for very long waits and premium price, often double normal retail.
A sheriff deputy acquaintance who looked as though he just stepped out of a stereotype of an Old West lawman, carried an S&W 25 with ammo he loaded himself. He explained the cartridge's performance about the way John Taffin later published, which was that it would do the job. I bought two and they did the limited-time job I needed them for.
Some years later I bought an S&W 625 after calling S&W and asking what it was capable of. As John Taffin said of the cartridge, there was no animal on the North American Continent what wouldn't fall to the .45-Colt 250-gr bullet at ~900 fps. I felt the same about it in Central and South America.
I have several .44-Magnum-chambered revolvers today, some purchased just as was described here: as new with one box of ammo and 6 to 11 rounds missing.
Final note, as to what prompted this ramble: I was present twice when a handgun blew up. First was a .38 with "rhino killers" in it. Second was a 1911, the owner of which was certain he had the secret to a magnum load. He nearly lost his right hand.
I'm perfectly happy to stay within manufactures' recommendations.

 

I used to do a lot of shooting and reloading. I still have a nice Dillon 550 setup and a RCBS Rock Chucker set for small batches. I have dies for most of my odd stuff. Like I said it is just one of my pet peeves that with all the different cartridges out there we keep thinking we need one more to make it perfect. I agree the 45 ACP really makes no sense in a Single Action other then cost of the initial brass or ammunition if you buy it all new as opposed to reloading. The 44 magnum was a much more powerful cartridge but it has never really been a fun thing to shoot unless you load it down to 44 special and then we are back to 44 special. I often see a 44 Mag come in with a box of ammo with 6 rounds missing. The only use for what you are describing would be to hunt with or for self defense. It wouldn't be a plinking or target type round. It is like doing something just because you can without a good reason to do it. If you really need a 44 magnum then get one and do it in a fully safe manner.

 

As good as the 44 Special is it doesn't fit the SAA cylinder aswell as the 44 mag case would. The 44 Mag is the same basic OAL as all the WCF cases and the 45 Colt case. No reason to load a 44 case as hot as it is now loaded commercially. That is the beauty of loading your own ammo. No reason not to put the 44 mag case in a SAA and lower the pressures by doing so on a duplicate of the 850/900fps, 240gr, 44 Special loads.

Sure you can do it now with a 44 Special case. But you can do it easier and without beating up the gun or the shooter as much as a 44 Special load would. The 44mag case can do anything a 44 Special round can do, but do it with less pressure. No denying that technically the OAL of a 44 mag case is a better cartridge design in the SAA cylinder than a 44 Special is.

 

Going the othr way, I am working with some .45 GAP brass in a revolver chambered for 45 ACP. The length of the 45ACP round loaded with a moon clip becomes quite critical as just a few thousands too long and the rounds in a moon clip will jam against the rear of the frame. So, rather than struggle getting each ACP round "just right", using the 1/10th inch shorter GAP cases makes it easy to build loads that drop right into place every time! The gun in use is a Smith 28-2 that has been equipped with a 1955 .45 cal barrel and 45 ACP cylinder. It is a great target gun and standard loads are plenty enough for the purpose. Plus, there are plenty of the GAP cases sitting around that nobody wants any more!

 

When I bought my first colt SAA in 1982, it was a 44 special 5 1/2”. I remember at a gun show, I was told I could get it rechambered in 44 magnum or I could buy a 44 mag. cyl for it. I never seriously considered it as I had and still have a ruger super Blackhawk in 44 mag. And at the time, I was really liking shooting lower powered 44 special ammo in it.
I am guessing colt thought long and hard about a 44 magnum SAA as it chambered some experimental New Frontiers in 44 magnum.
What you say about other manufactures making a thicker 45 colt cylinder also applies to the colt cowboy, as it was thicker too. But the official reason was for deeper bolt notches for cowboy action shooting.

Now I have 3 44 special colt single actions. One of them is the wonderful New Frontier 7 1/2”. If you reference the 45th edition of lymans reloading manual, they use a 5 1/2” Colt SAA for its load development. In particular a 2400 load gets Keith’s 245 grain bullet to 1150 FPS in a 5 1/2” barrel. My chronograph is on the blink, but no dought, it gets to 1200 FPS in my 7 1/2” barrel. I can’t imagine anything in N. America that it would not punch through. I still remember that range day and fully liking the skeeter load ( 950-1000 FPS) so much more. The other consideration is the plow handle of the SAA isn't really designed for such power ( Ruger made a longer grip frame for its SBH and dropped the 44 mag. chambering in its standard Blackhawk). That recoil could be someone mitigated with a pachmayr rubber grip. I don’t know if you have a 44 special 7 1/2 but I would let you try mine and then you could ask yourself if going more was really needed. An anaconda or Smith N frame handles heavy recoil so much better than the plow handle.

I am also really enjoying my New Frontier 7 1/2” nickel 357. And with full power 357, it’s not so bad on recoil but of course it’s a heavier gun chambered in 357 and recoil is less. Even with this gun, I am enjoying a lighter 357 load though.

 

Respectfully, here are my thoughts, your mileage may vary...
We are merely custodians of these fine weapons. We cannot and do not live forever. That said, once we are gone, a SAA chambered for the .44 Magnum cartridge has the potential of being a bomb in the hands of an unsuspecting and inexperienced new owner. As in "Hey this cartridge from this box of full- house loads I found in the desk drawer fits it so it must be safe to shoot." While I personally understand your logic for rechambering, but for loading and shooting light loads, you will not own it forever. That is when it could become hazardous. Kind of a grenade that doesn't look like a grenade. Personally, I'm happy with my .44 Specials as-is. This is merely my opinion...

 

I'm in the thinking range of I'm not a custodian of man made goods . I buy stuff and use the way I please .Sorry ( not looking to fight ) , the ones I see here are nice but there are plenty of good contenders in museums that will be forever .The ones we have are mostly pass arounds , worship them if that's you bag . If some numskull cuts his hand off with my 80 year old table saw that has no guard and he/she /// heshe ? was stupid on the matter to begin with ,after I'm dead , pretty sure I won't lose a wink of sleep .



All the hoopla and nae saying , worth reading some what and maybe information towards an end result ? All new calibers start some were .

 

What makes you say the 44 Special does not fit the SAA cylinder as well just because the case is shorter? With a 200 gr round nose bullet the OAL of 44 Special is almost identical to 45 Colt with a 250 gr flat point. You can also use the Keith 240 SWCs for a longer OAL in 44 Spec, which is probably the best option to fit one of the best 44 caliber bullets into an SAA cylinder. That bullet in a 44 Mag case would never fit.

 

I actually have given some thought to building a 40 S&W Colt SAA. The idea kind of sparked with me when I first saw a Ruger Vaquero in 38-40 / 40 S&W Convertible. I could not find one for sale as Ruger did not make many of these so I thought why not build one. Of course might as well build it in a Colt SAA. I also thought it would be kind of cool having a gun that the factory doesn't offer. I got as far as to send a donor cylinder to Jim Cornwall. He was going to rechamber it from 357 to 40S&W. Sadly Jim had fallen and then even worst past away. His SIL sent the cylinder back to me. So the project never got finished or really even took off. I still have the 38-40 cylinder and barrel. I did finally find a Ruger 38-40/40S&Ws.
I remember thinking that the 40 S&W would be safe even though it was close in regards to the CUP. I liked the idea of using my Glock ammo in a SAA. I am not a big Glock fan even though I own 3.
I believe when I finally end up with a factory Colt SAA in 38-40 I will will have a 40 S&W cylinder made for it.
The 10mm reminds me of the 460 Rowland as it has a lot of power.
I did see a Ruger vaquero that had an extra 460 cylinder made for it along with it's 45 cylinder.
The problem that I see in building a 44 magnum cylinder for the SAA is after we depart I would be concerned that a grandson may not realize that light reloads should be used and hurt themselves or other around him while firing it.

 

Cozmo, I will be happy to sell or trade you my Uberti/Colt in 44 Mag

 

Terry thats a beautiful revolver.

 

Except for the front sight!

 

It just looks like a really nice shooting accurate gun to me. Not sure what model Uberti called it but sure reminds me of a New Fronter.
I have a EMF with a colt barrel on it. I wish it was engraved like yours.

 

If you look the 40 s&w and the 10mm are both way over pressure for a Colt SAA cylinder. Only way that is safe is handload really light loads. Then you have the same issue of who gets their hands on the gun next.

I'm not wanting a 44 magnum. Don't want or need that kind of pressure or power.

But some real advantages with modern powders, the Colt SAA and a case slightly smaller than the 45 Colt case. It is why the 44 Special is "Special". And why the case size of a 44 mag could well be even "more special".

Cartridge OAL length?

What makes you say the 44 Special does not fit the SAA cylinder as well just because the case is shorter?

Best just to do the math on that The same 240gr lead SWC bullet in the 44 mag case and the 44 Special case below.

Maximum OAL of a 45 Colt and a 44 Magnum very close 45 is @ 1.60" the 44 is at 1.61". Colt SAA cylinder will accept a 1.60 max. The 44 Special ammo here is a 240gr lead SWC is loaded at 1.45". The 200 gr 44 Special is loaded at 1.44". 44 Special ammo OAL spec is 1.50".

Interesting push back. All it takes for a 44 Special or a 44-40 to be rechambered to a full size 44 case is running a chamber reamer into a 44 Special cylinder. I have a few 44 Special SAA guns. A spare cylinder isn't hard to come up with.

Other than obvious head stamp it seems like the 44 mag sized case and the properly loaded ammo is a no brainier in the Colt sized SAA. Heck of a lot stronger gun than the 45 Colt version is and easy to hit the same power factor as a 45 Colt with less pressure. 44 mag brass loaded down is gonna last a long time. I like the idea. Helps that I have 10K pieces of new, Winchester, primed, 44 mag brass.

Kinda funny because without the properly loaded ammo...any of them but the 32-20, will blow a Colt to pieces.

 

Cartridge OAL length?

Best just to do the math there

You will find that the OAL of a 44 SPL with a Keith style bullet like the Lyman 429421 is very close to the others you quoted. Also, back in the "old days" when 44 Special was loaded with true round nose bullets, not flat points, the OAL of a loaded round was almost identical to 45 Colt.

45 Colt, L; 44 S&W Special, R

 

I see absolutely no reason to do what you are suggesting when 44 Special cases are perfectly adequate to get the maximum performance out of a .429 bullet in a SAA.

BTW, if you are up for some real excitement, a 44 Mag round will drop right into a 45 Colt cylinder.

 

44 Specials with 246 gr round nose bullets were loaded @ 750fps.

Not looking for "maximum performance". Looking for a better designed case that actually fits the Colt SAA. The 44 Special doesn't for length.

 

Not looking for "maximum performance". Looking for a better designed case that actually fits the Colt SAA. The 44 Special doesn't for length.

Better design? There is nothing better or worse about the design of a 44 mag or 44 Special case. I also don't understand why you are so hung up on the bullets being closer to the end of the cylinder. If anything, that just increases the chances of a bullet backing out under recoil and tying up the gun.

 

Your theory may be correct but you have reached the point of diminishing returns and greatly increased the risk of a catastrophic failure.

 

I get, that you don't get it.

 

I don't think anybody else does either, because it's a really bad idea.

If your actual goal is to reduce pressure, use a lighter load in the smaller case. That is much more efficient than an even lighter load in a larger case, which can cause all sorts of other issues, most of which are not good. The only thing your proposed modification is gaining is a longer OAL simply for its own sake, but as I pointed out, if you want the bullets extended out to the end of the cylinder, use a Keith bullet in a 44 SPL case.

 

if your actual goal is to reduce pressure, use a lighter load in the smaller case.

That makes no sense. The Cowboy 45 Special. I understand how it all works on both power and case size and why. But funny enough if you look at 45acp pressures which is the same as the 45 CS brass for size the pressures are higher than the 45 Colt.

If you want less pressure, you can do one of two things. Less powder being one. Or a bigger case the other.

A lighter powder load in a 44 Special case? Sure a lighter load with the same bullet weight will give you less pressure. Not the idea of using a longer 44 case.

 

You are the one who made the comments about reducing chamber pressure. Lighter loads generally reduce chamber pressure in any given case size. The reason it doesn't make sense to you is because you only quoted half of what I said. If your goal is a lighter load, you are better off loading a small case light than a big case very light. That can cause erratic ignition with certain powders.

 

Yep I did. I was talking about reducing pressure by using a longer case and why that would be beneficial specifically in a Colt SAA. If you want to reduce pressure in a specific case size couple of options, reduce powder charge, or reduce bullet weight. Or if you have the extra cylinder length to do so you can increase the volume of the case and OAL of the cartridge. Which is virtually what happens when you reduce bullet weight but stay at the same OAL cartridge length.

 

Its a bad idea ripe for future catastrophe. I get what you are trying to do and its very little gained compared to the risk.

 

Not sure if it helps. And I don’t think you’d wanna pay this for sure. But there’s a unique .44 Mag Colt on gunbroker now. May give you some ideas by studying it?

GunBroker.com - Error

 

I can see a longer case like the magnum compared to specials be beneficial for bullet jump , getting the lead out there a touch more and less reliant on the cylinder .The thicker walls make make sense to me . A guy can use companies like Whidden Gunworks . They will make you a custom set of dies shaped like a hat if that's what you want . Maybe a belt for ID and dummies , let's call it a .44 Maglite .

 

I can see a longer case like the magnum compared to specials be beneficial for bullet jump , getting the lead out there a touch more and less reliant on the cylinder .

In a revolver the throat that sizes the bullet down closer to bore diameter (ideally about .5 to 1 thou over bore diameter) before it hits the forcing core is always going to be in the cylinder. You are not reducing bullet jump to the throat with a longer case in the same length cylinder, just shortening the length of the throat in the cylinder. Bullet jump to the throat is really only an issue when using shorter cases in a cylinder reamed for a longer one, like shooting 38 Specials in a 357 Mag. If you think bullet jump to the throat is an issue, it's easy enough to tune the jump by adjusting bullet seating depth. Pretty common with precision handloading for rifles.

Within reason, I would actually prefer a longer throat to a shorter one because it does a better job of squaring and sizing the bullet as it exits the cylinder and hits the forcing cone.