[Cozmo]

I get, that you don't get it.

 

[bigwagon]

I don't think anybody else does either, because it's a really bad idea.

If your actual goal is to reduce pressure, use a lighter load in the smaller case. That is much more efficient than an even lighter load in a larger case, which can cause all sorts of other issues, most of which are not good. The only thing your proposed modification is gaining is a longer OAL simply for its own sake, but as I pointed out, if you want the bullets extended out to the end of the cylinder, use a Keith bullet in a 44 SPL case.

 

[Cozmo]

if your actual goal is to reduce pressure, use a lighter load in the smaller case.

That makes no sense. The Cowboy 45 Special. I understand how it all works on both power and case size and why. But funny enough if you look at 45acp pressures which is the same as the 45 CS brass for size the pressures are higher than the 45 Colt.

If you want less pressure, you can do one of two things. Less powder being one. Or a bigger case the other.

A lighter powder load in a 44 Special case? Sure a lighter load with the same bullet weight will give you less pressure. Not the idea of using a longer 44 case.

 

[bigwagon]

You are the one who made the comments about reducing chamber pressure. Lighter loads generally reduce chamber pressure in any given case size. The reason it doesn't make sense to you is because you only quoted half of what I said. If your goal is a lighter load, you are better off loading a small case light than a big case very light. That can cause erratic ignition with certain powders.

 

[Cozmo]

Yep I did. I was talking about reducing pressure by using a longer case and why that would be beneficial specifically in a Colt SAA. If you want to reduce pressure in a specific case size couple of options, reduce powder charge, or reduce bullet weight. Or if you have the extra cylinder length to do so you can increase the volume of the case and OAL of the cartridge. Which is virtually what happens when you reduce bullet weight but stay at the same OAL cartridge length.

 

[safestuffer]

Its a bad idea ripe for future catastrophe. I get what you are trying to do and its very little gained compared to the risk.

 

[7.62Kolectr]

Not sure if it helps. And I don’t think you’d wanna pay this for sure. But there’s a unique .44 Mag Colt on gunbroker now. May give you some ideas by studying it?

GunBroker.com - Error

 

[Some guy]

I was looking at rechambering a cylinder too 40 or better yet 10mm using a 38-40 Colt barrel. But then I looked up the pressures that the 40 and 10mm run at. Even the light loads worth building are too much for a new 3rd Gen Colt.

Then I thought about using the longer 10mm Mag brass and getting a longer OAL to fit in a Colt's cylinder and while doing so lowering the pressures. All good but head spacing off the case mouth is going backwards on a Colt for sure.

At one time Col built a few 41 Mag SAA Army guns that seem to function just fine. I'm guessing the 41 mag is the highest pressure that a Colt can take (if only barely) @ 36K psi. The 357 Magnum is 35K psi but has more steel in the cylinder. The 45acp runs @ 21K psi. The 45 Colt runs at 14K psi.

Then the thought occurred to me that the 9mm, 45acp, 38 Special and 44 Special are very short cartridge cases inside a Colt cylinder OAL. 45acp pairs up nicely with the 45 Colt and is a lower pressure cartridge.

Question is, "anyone ever run a reamer into a 44 special cylinder and then run 44 mag brass at lower pressures or 44 mag brass using black powder? Seems like someone would have done this a long time ago. You could run the hot, heavy bullet, 44 Special loads in a 44 mag case, use a slower powder and lower the pressure doing so. Seems like a win to me. As long as you never stick a 44 mag load in the gun. 44 mag brass would also make a great BP round and have a stronger cylinder without the huge internal cylinder cut outs that the 44-40 and 38-40 require.

With good powder selection there is no reason you have to run high pressures in a 44 mag case.

"Elmer Keith recommend 5/Bulleye for a target load and 10/Unique for a mid-range load under that bullet in the 44 Magnum round. I have fired many of each and they work great "
Loading Down the .44 Magnum Safely - Shooting Times

Light loads for 44 Magnum (gunloads.com)

I can see a longer case like the magnum compared to specials be beneficial for bullet jump , getting the lead out there a touch more and less reliant on the cylinder .The thicker walls make make sense to me . A guy can use companies like Whidden Gunworks . They will make you a custom set of dies shaped like a hat if that's what you want . Maybe a belt for ID and dummies , let's call it a .44 Maglite .

 

[Cozmo]

Ok, lets look at this rationally. But first just forget that the 44-magnum case has a 44-magnum head stamp on it.

Old Elmer wasn't looking for the best cartridge design to stuff into a Colt SAA. He was looking for the most power he could jam into a handgun...and still carry the handgun on his belt.

Think not? Go pick up your 4" model 29 and get back to me on that. There are a lot of reasons the old thumb buster is still around being used. Size and the power it can pack are two of them.

Within reason Keith did what the best firearms designers do, Browning the perfect example. Design the cartridge then design the gun that will fire the cartridge. #3 was just that.

The Colt SAA cylinder is 1.68" in length. The first cartridge designed to use with the SAA was 1.6" in OAL. And 45 Colt pushed the metallurgy and ammunition technology of the day to the maximum. And the reason the US military, very early on, downloaded the 45 Colt to the Schofield. The guns blew up.

The 45 Colt case and any similar case dia. (read 45acp, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy) makes the bolt locking slot so thin as to be unsafe with anything much over 14K psi. And why Uberti went to a cylinder dia. of 1.670 as opposed to the Colt 1.650". That extra .02" of steel gave the Uberti (and Uberti clones like Standard and USFA) at the lock slot them the advantage of cylinder strength to avoid things like this.


But anyone that has shot both a Uberti size gun and Colt likely also knows the difference, in weight balance and feel. The Colt's, although only slightly different, is simply more handy.

The Colt 45 case dia. is .480". The 44 Special case dia. is .456". We know the .02" of an inch makes the Uberti guns a lot stronger and fully capable of higher-pressure loads in 44 Special and 45 Colt if you are to believe Brian Pierce's research. You add .024" of cylinder steel at the lock slot by using 44 Special/magnum case size chamber. That is a lot of extra steel on a Colt. And that extra steel makes the Colt good to somewhere close to 22,000 psi instead of the more typically listed 14,500psi. Add another .125" of case length and you can lower the internal pressure further while still staying at the same level of power.

.44 S&W Special +P (Pet Loads) | Handloader Magazine

Brian splits his ammo pressure into three categories. I have no need for really hot ammo but dropping the pressure in a Colt size SAA of any generation is never going to be a bad thing. If you can get the desired level of power from your ammo with lower pressure, I'm all in.

I'd guess if factory 44 Magnum cases were head stamped 44 Colt this would not be a long discussion. And everyone would by now be well aware that you didn't drop 44 Magnum ammo in a "44 Colt" chamber.

Aren't many cartridge cases that won't drop into a 45 Colt chamber. Most seem to have been able to avoid that problem just fine

 

[Cozmo]

I can see a longer case like the magnum compared to specials be beneficial for bullet jump , getting the lead out there a touch more and less reliant on the cylinder .The thicker walls make make sense to me .

Bingo! Glad someone actually gets it.

44 Special case and a 44 mag case both loaded with a lead 240gr SWC in a 3rd Colt 44 Special cylinder. Room to spare in the cylinder for the 240s and the 44 mag case. I had to check my reamers for a 44 Mag or 44 Special reamer. No got. But just ordered one. I should be shooting a 3rd Gen. with the long 44s by next weekend. I'll load a few including 3F and chrono the results. Thanks to everyone for keeping the conversation going.

Don't worry guys, I won't store this long chambered cylinder, still marked "44s" in with any guns

 

[rooster721]

I don't have the exact year, but the articles I have suggest that the following was done in the 40's, by John Lachuk... a fellow who developed his own reamers and wildcatted a performance 44 (in COLT Single actions) that pre-dated the Remington Magnum by many years, he called it the 44Lancer.

His casings were made up from solid head .405 Winchester brass cut to what was basically identical length to the later-coming 44mag, loaded with Ray Thompsons gas checked 244-bullets and lit off with 22.5grains of 2400. Spitting image of future 44mag historical hand load info* The interesting part, (and what most guys don't consider when these topics come up) is case capacities ....

Lachuk wrote of comparing balloon head 44special cases, solid head 44special, his cut down .405winchester/Lancer cases, and the eventual 44Rem Mag case too.. using 2400 for media, and cases filled to the brim, the numbers went like this:
Balloon Head 44spl: 36gr
Solid Head 44spl: 32gr
.405winbrass/44Lancer: 34gr
Factory 44mag: 35gr

So, when Elmer Keith & Associates wrote about heavy special loads in the old balloon head brass loaded up to and over 20.0gr powder behind his 429421 bullet, [fired in their Colt single actions] and you note the speeds they were getting, and then think about the apparent pressures THOSE must have been putting out compared to the pressure tested solid-head special load of his firing 17.5gr 2400/429421 @24,500psi, THEN look at the 44mag & it's loads and pressures @36,000psi, plus consider the case capacity comparisons between them all, it becomes pretty obvious that full magnum-level loads were being fired through Colt 44's with that balloon head special brass long before 44magnum existed as true 44magnum. Let alone what John Lachuks .405win/lancer-mag had for ballistics & capacity n all compared to todays 44mag.

If you really get right down to it, the balloon head special brass 'capacity' was essentially what the solid head magnum cases now are, for internal capacity. Loaded right to the kilt, the special did the same damn thing as the magnum does, but with lesser case life in the balloon head stuff.

Now I'm not saying 44mag is the chambering to stick in a Colt, I am of the opinion heavy specials are all anyone could need for power out of a handgun. And that, only when due call arises for such loads. BUT, noone can argue with the numbers for what they are... the Colt SAA has been firing mag-level 44 pills for a long time. Might have done it on the ragged edge, but sure as hell HAs done it.

And Coz, I guess if a guy got right down to wondering what a full load of black would do in a 44mag, you could probably search up what a full load of black would have performed like in Balloon 44special cases and get the same answer ... as I noted up above, their case capacity is pretty well identical.

 

[Mikebiker]

The early 45 Colt Ammunition was loader to Schofield length because 45 Colt would not fit the S&W which was in service at the time on a semi trial basis.

Cozmo you are beating a dead horse here. The objective you are trying to achieve is logical but could only be observed by an individual using sophisticated testing tools. In ones own hand the difference would never be noticed. Just because something can be does not mean it is a good idea or needs to be done. Many of the cartridges the Colt was chambered for fit the cylinder poorly but here we are 150 years later and no one has felt the need for a new cartridge for the gun. The short 45 cartridge was developed for the exact opposite reasons you are looking at and it fits the cylinder very poorly but it actually meets the current needs for a less powerful round to fit the standard 45 cylinder in a SAFE manner. Try a poll on how many are looking for more power out of their single action and see what you get.

The 45-70 can be loaded just about to a 458 magnum velocity and bullet weight. The manuals give data for this and it is recommended for the Ruger Single shot and Siamese Mauser. The trouble is there are lots of loaded rounds laying around that will turn your trapdoor into a hand grenade right in your face.

 

[Some guy]

I'm in the thinking range of I'm not a custodian of man made goods . I buy stuff and use the way I please .Sorry ( not looking to fight ) , the ones I see here are nice but there are plenty of good contenders in museums that will be forever .The ones we have are mostly pass arounds , worship them if that's you bag . If some numskull cuts his hand off with my 80 year old table saw that has no guard and he/she /// heshe ? was stupid on the matter to begin with ,after I'm dead , pretty sure I won't lose a wink of sleep .

Respectfully, here are my thoughts, your mileage may vary...
We are merely custodians of these fine weapons. We cannot and do not live forever. That said, once we are gone, a SAA chambered for the .44 Magnum cartridge has the potential of being a bomb in the hands of an unsuspecting and inexperienced new owner. As in "Hey this cartridge from this box of full- house loads I found in the desk drawer fits it so it must be safe to shoot." While I personally understand your logic for rechambering, but for loading and shooting light loads, you will not own it forever. That is when it could become hazardous. Kind of a grenade that doesn't look like a grenade. Personally, I'm happy with my .44 Specials as-is. This is merely my opinion...

All the hoopla and nae saying , worth reading some what and maybe information towards an end result ? All new calibers start some were .

 

[Cozmo]

The early 45 Colt Ammunition was loader to Schofield length because 45 Colt would not fit the S&W

Ya, no. Part of it certainly. Happen stance more likely. But the reason the US Army stopped using the full size 45 Colt load was the guns continued to blow up.

 

[Mikebiker]

The army specified that the revolver would chamber the .45 Colt cartridge, but the Smith & Wesson revolver’s cylinder was too short do it was chambered in a shorter .45 Smith & Wesson—often referred to as the .45 Schofield, adopted in 1875. The Smith & Wesson cartridge would function in the Colt SAA but not vice-versa. Army quartermasters had headaches trying to sort out ammo for each revolver. Frankfort Arsenal, which supplied nearly all the ammo for the Army, simply ceased loading the .45 Colt and supplied the troops with .45 S&W cartridges.

 

[bigwagon]

I can see a longer case like the magnum compared to specials be beneficial for bullet jump , getting the lead out there a touch more and less reliant on the cylinder .

In a revolver the throat that sizes the bullet down closer to bore diameter (ideally about .5 to 1 thou over bore diameter) before it hits the forcing core is always going to be in the cylinder. You are not reducing bullet jump to the throat with a longer case in the same length cylinder, just shortening the length of the throat in the cylinder. Bullet jump to the throat is really only an issue when using shorter cases in a cylinder reamed for a longer one, like shooting 38 Specials in a 357 Mag. If you think bullet jump to the throat is an issue, it's easy enough to tune the jump by adjusting bullet seating depth. Pretty common with precision handloading for rifles.

Within reason, I would actually prefer a longer throat to a shorter one because it does a better job of squaring and sizing the bullet as it exits the cylinder and hits the forcing cone.

 

[Cozmo]

don't have the exact year, but the articles I have suggest that the following was done in the 40's, by John Lachuk

Thanks Rooster. Exactly the kind of solid info I was looking for. Elmer got a lot of credit for the 44 mag and deserves a good bit of it. But not all of it, as you have so adroitly pointed out. I really appreciate the heads up there. Taffin has the story down. I am sure there is more. Just found these on a quick search.

9. THE ROAD TO THE 44 MAGNUM (sixguns.com)

41. 44 BULLETS, POWDERS, PRIMERS, AND DIES (sixguns.com)

The Sixguns that Made the Magnums

Good read here as well.
John Lachuk - 24hourcampfire

Pretty much repeating what Rooster has said:

"In the late 1940's, John Lachuk went a step further with the .44 using cut down .405 Winchester rifle brass to make his version of a heavy loaded .44 Special. Used in specially cylindered Colt Single Actions, with the brass made as long as possible to fit the cylinder, Lachuk's .44 virtually duplicated what was to come forth from Smith & Wesson and Remington a few years into the future. His load consisted of 22.5 grains of #2400 under Lyman's #413244 gas check bullet and he was surely walking the edge in the Colt Single Action. When the .44 Magnum arrived, Lachuk replaced all of the wildcat cylinders in those Colts with standard .44 Special cylinders."'

I get that a good many here don't get it. That is fine.

I'm not looking for a 44 magnum in power or pressure. Just looking for a better case to use in a Colt SAA. I have no doubt that the 44-magnum case is a better answer than anything we are currently using if you want to maximize the gun's design. If not, the 44 Special brass, is top of the heap.

184-051-440WB
Rimmed Finisher Style Reamer fits .44 Magnum Cylinder
Mfr Part: F44MGNC

 

[Mikebiker]

What meaningful effect would this have for the shooter? What could one expect to see different by doing this. This is situation where the results would be so tiny that nothing meaningful would be obtained. The quest for a more powerful 44 caliber cartridge led to the 44 magnum which in turn led to guns designed to handle the pressure in a safe manner. You say you don't want more power just a better fitting case. If that was a high priority I think Manufacturers would have been focusing on that for years. Just about any revolver built in more then one caliber has one or more cartridges that do not fit as you see it. Why is this? Because it is not that big of a deal and the gun will shoot and perform just fine with things the way they are. As I said in my first post you are trying to come up with something no one needs.

 

[Cozmo]

That is funny. No one "needs" a SAA. I don't need anything. I do like doing things better. May not be better for you. I am good with that too.

 

[waltesefalcon]

I believe that there will be a couple of benefits to this experiment. One, as pointed out above, is that there will be less bullet jump. Two, a .44 mag case loaded to .44 spl loads will maintain the same power as the .44 spl while reducing the pressure. This will make the brass last longer, likely much longer, and will be easier on the gun. I'm interested in seeing how this turns out.