I have several of these and there seems to be conflicting reports on if they are considered "Real Colts" ? Any opinions or experts out there that know about these ?
scstrain
I don't think that you will find a consensus either way. Some think they are, and some don't, and each side has its supporting arguments. I have a 3rd gen 1851 Navy and consider it as existing somewhere between those two positions, something akin to gun version of a Platypus, not easily defined.
Best regards,
Best regards,
Sorry, 3rd Gen Colt percussion revolvers are NOT considered real Colts. Only the original 1st Gen and the 2nd Gen revolvers are considered REAL Colts and will letter from the company as such. The C series Colt revolvers, 1851 Navy and 3rd Model Dragoon, were assembled and finished in-house; the F series revolvers were assembled under contract for Colt, then inspected, warrantied, and advertised by Colt.
3rd Gen. Colt Signature Series were built under a license agreement between Colt's and the manufacture, Louis Imperato who formed Colt Blackpowder Arms Company. These revolvers will NOT letter from Colt and Colt had AND has nothing else to do with these revolvers.
While the quality of 2nd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers is considered very good to excellent by most collectors, the quality of the 3rd Gen. apparently varied, especially during the middle of the production run where the quality control really suffered as evidenced by generally poor fit and finish. My own experience is that quality varies greatly depending upon the revolver type and when produced. I believe most collectors view the 3rd Gen. revolvers ahead of the current Uberti revolvers, but behind the 2nd Gen. in terms of quality.
Collectability varies greatly as does current pricing. The 3rd Gen. revolver series did include models not produced in the 2nd Gen. production run such as the 1849 Pocket Revolver, 1862 Trapper, and the Paterson revolvers. Additionally, there were several very limited production revolvers built which attract collectors today.
I know this is a long drawn out answer and probably more than you needed. For additional information on both the 2nd and 3rd Gen. revolvers, I'd refer you to Dennis Russell's book, "Percussion Colt Revolvers - Collector's Handbook & Price Guide #6."
Mike
3rd Gen. Colt Signature Series were built under a license agreement between Colt's and the manufacture, Louis Imperato who formed Colt Blackpowder Arms Company. These revolvers will NOT letter from Colt and Colt had AND has nothing else to do with these revolvers.
While the quality of 2nd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers is considered very good to excellent by most collectors, the quality of the 3rd Gen. apparently varied, especially during the middle of the production run where the quality control really suffered as evidenced by generally poor fit and finish. My own experience is that quality varies greatly depending upon the revolver type and when produced. I believe most collectors view the 3rd Gen. revolvers ahead of the current Uberti revolvers, but behind the 2nd Gen. in terms of quality.
Collectability varies greatly as does current pricing. The 3rd Gen. revolver series did include models not produced in the 2nd Gen. production run such as the 1849 Pocket Revolver, 1862 Trapper, and the Paterson revolvers. Additionally, there were several very limited production revolvers built which attract collectors today.
I know this is a long drawn out answer and probably more than you needed. For additional information on both the 2nd and 3rd Gen. revolvers, I'd refer you to Dennis Russell's book, "Percussion Colt Revolvers - Collector's Handbook & Price Guide #6."
Mike
No. In my opinion, the only 'real' Colt is the original production models. First generation production, and that is it. Once a percussion revolver stopped being produced for the very first time, that is the end of it all. Same with Single Action Army revolvers. The first generation was produced until about 1940. Anything after that, in my opinion, isn't a real Colt. There is one chance for the real deal--anything after that is a reproduction...
That's the stupidest thing I've ever read. Actually, now that I think about it, I agree with you and hope the rest of the collecting world does as well so that I can buy any "not real" Colt I want at a price far less than I have been paying.
Damn, now I'm going to have to throw away all my 2nd and 3rd generation SAA's, never realized they were fakes.:bang_wall:
I can see where there would be a lot of confusion. As I am writing this I am looking at the inside
of the cover of my box which reads "the authentic Colt BLACKPOWDER Signature Series". Ergo, I
have considered my Colt Dragoon (Model 3) #37050 a genuine albeit replica by Colt. Is this
wishful thinking or did someone put something over on this old duffer? Thoughts?
BTW: Could some of you old hands help me out and provide some guidance as to what constitutes
a "first generation", "second generation" and "third generation". No big thing, its just that I see these
terms a lot in threads and would like to understand the discussions better.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
of the cover of my box which reads "the authentic Colt BLACKPOWDER Signature Series". Ergo, I
have considered my Colt Dragoon (Model 3) #37050 a genuine albeit replica by Colt. Is this
wishful thinking or did someone put something over on this old duffer? Thoughts?
BTW: Could some of you old hands help me out and provide some guidance as to what constitutes
a "first generation", "second generation" and "third generation". No big thing, its just that I see these
terms a lot in threads and would like to understand the discussions better.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I feel more confused now than before.
I have four Signature series NIB 31 Trapper, a 36 Navy, 44 Army and a Walker 44.
Then also a .44 Black Box Dragoon 1st or 2nd I don't recall. Is the black box a gen 2.
Seems the pricing is all over the place from $600 up to $900 or higher.
I thought of moving them out for the cash. I paid retail and if I break even it will not be done. My wife can wait 20 years and hope for a fair deal.
Seems geting them to the right buyer is a coin flip.
I have four Signature series NIB 31 Trapper, a 36 Navy, 44 Army and a Walker 44.
Then also a .44 Black Box Dragoon 1st or 2nd I don't recall. Is the black box a gen 2.
Seems the pricing is all over the place from $600 up to $900 or higher.
I thought of moving them out for the cash. I paid retail and if I break even it will not be done. My wife can wait 20 years and hope for a fair deal.
Seems geting them to the right buyer is a coin flip.
I have found these articles helpful
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974 to 1976. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978 to 1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.
The Colt Custom Shop also produced a limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory.
The "C" Series 2nd gen.s
COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. : "C" SERIES These Colt percussion revolvers were reintroduced in 1971 (1851 Navy) and 1974 (3rd Model Dragoon). Both models were discontinued in late 1976 (no reference is made to them in either the 1977 Colt Catalog or Colt Price List). The 1851 Navy and Third Model Dragoon were the only models to be produced in both the "C" Series and "F" Series configurations. While the fit and finish of both series is of the highest quality, the difference is unmistakable. The "C" Series has a beautiful bright "Royal Blue" finish while the "F" Series has a more durable dark "Colt Blue" finish. Another distinguishing feature is the serial number range (4201 to 25099 for the "C" Series 1851 Navy and 20901 to 25099 for the "C" Series Third Model Dragoon).
The "F" Series
COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. : "F" SERIES Production of these revolvers began in November 1978 with the 1860 Army and continued with the release of the various models described below until all production ceased in November 1982. Special Edition and Limited Edition models continued to be issued from the Colt Custom Shop inventory through the mid-1990s. Rumors persist, even at this late date, that a few in-the-white specimens are still hidden away at Colt´s. "F" Series revolvers were produced with a durable dark "Colt Blue" finish while the "C" Series finish is a more lustrous "Royal Blue."
COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO. Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002.
All 3rd Generation Colt black powder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Black powder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the back strap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Black powder Arms Company – the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Black powder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974 to 1976. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978 to 1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.
The Colt Custom Shop also produced a limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory.
The "C" Series 2nd gen.s
COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. : "C" SERIES These Colt percussion revolvers were reintroduced in 1971 (1851 Navy) and 1974 (3rd Model Dragoon). Both models were discontinued in late 1976 (no reference is made to them in either the 1977 Colt Catalog or Colt Price List). The 1851 Navy and Third Model Dragoon were the only models to be produced in both the "C" Series and "F" Series configurations. While the fit and finish of both series is of the highest quality, the difference is unmistakable. The "C" Series has a beautiful bright "Royal Blue" finish while the "F" Series has a more durable dark "Colt Blue" finish. Another distinguishing feature is the serial number range (4201 to 25099 for the "C" Series 1851 Navy and 20901 to 25099 for the "C" Series Third Model Dragoon).
The "F" Series
COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. : "F" SERIES Production of these revolvers began in November 1978 with the 1860 Army and continued with the release of the various models described below until all production ceased in November 1982. Special Edition and Limited Edition models continued to be issued from the Colt Custom Shop inventory through the mid-1990s. Rumors persist, even at this late date, that a few in-the-white specimens are still hidden away at Colt´s. "F" Series revolvers were produced with a durable dark "Colt Blue" finish while the "C" Series finish is a more lustrous "Royal Blue."
COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO. Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002.
All 3rd Generation Colt black powder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Black powder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the back strap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Black powder Arms Company – the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Black powder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.
And this one (Credit to our buddy "Dogface")
Throughout the storied history of Colt's, there has been a succession of illustrious models, from the innovative Paterson revolvers of the late 1830s to the 1860 Army--the principal sidearm of Civil War Union officers--to the 1873 Peacemaker and Model 1911A1, the most distinguished military sidearm in American history.
One of the more interesting footnotes in the company's story, however, began in 1971, when it made the unprecedented decision to re-introduce a model it had last built in 1873. With the reintroduction of the legendary 1851 Navy--a gun made famous by James Butler "Wild Bill" Hickok--Colt's embarked on an 11-year odyssey that would result in one of the most popular and collectible series the Hartford, Connecticut, armsmaker would ever produce.
The tale of the 2nd Generation Colt black-powder line actually began in the late 1950s with Val Forgett, founder of Navy Arms, and Italian gunmakers Vittorio Gregorelli and Aldo Uberti. They chose the Colt 1851 Navy as the first percussion revolver to be reproduced in Italy in 1958.
After a dozen years and thousands of Colt reproductions, the success of the Italian-made '51 Navy--which Aldo Uberti frequently supplied to filmmaker Sergio Lione and Clint Eastwood for early spaghetti westerns--had finally come to the attention of the company that invented it.
There have been countless tales how Colt's dusted off the old tooling from the 1851 and began manufacturing new guns at Hartford, which would have been very interesting had the tooling not been destroyed when a fire razed most of the factory on Feb. 4, 1864.
As for the tooling used to make the later percussion models produced through 1873, it was simply discarded over the years, so Colt's could never have brought back the 1851 Navy, or any other percussion era model had it not been for Forgett, Uberti and, ultimately, Lou Imperato.
Imperato, who founded Colt Blackpowder Arms Co. in 1993 (which produced the 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder line through 2002), recalls that Forgett sold Colt's the components (rough castings) to build the first 2nd Generation 1851 Navy revolvers, which were completed at the Hartford factory from 1971 through 1973. The first C Series 1851 Navy repros included the now collectible Grant and Lee Navy sets.
However, late in 1973 Colt's decided to seek a new supplier of components and the following year Lou Imperato, its largest American distributor, took over.
The company's enthusiasm for the percussion revolvers was obvious in its decision to place the new Third Model Dragoon on the cover of its 1974 sales catalog.
The Dragoon and Navy models were listed along with the Python, Detective Special, Cobra, Agent, Diamondback, Trooper MKIII, Official Police MKIII, Lawman MKIII, 1873 Peacemaker Single Action Army models, and semi-autos. Unfortunately, labor disputes delayed the Dragoon in 1974, causing Colt's to take the unprecedented step of re-announcing the Dragoon model in 1975, when deliveries actually began.
The relationship with Imperato continued until Colt's discontinued the first series of percussion revolvers in 1976. This, however, was not the end of the black-powder line.
In 1973 Lou Imperato had purchased the Iver Johnson Arms Company in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. A year after Colt's discontinued the black-powder line, Imperato moved the Iver Johnson works to Middlesex, New Jersey, and approached Colt's with the idea of producing an entire line of black-powder pistols, which the Italians had been doing successfully since the late 1950s.
He came in with both barrels blazing, so to speak, reprimanding Colt's management. "[They're] your guns and everyone else is getting rich on them and you're not out there."
He showed them a display of various black-powder models and they were once again intrigued--but as before, had no way of manufacturing. The timing could not have been better for Imperato. He signed a deal with Colt's and Iver Johnson to produce a new line of black-powder models.
It was in Middlesex that all F Series standard production models were manufactured as The Authentic Colt Blackpowder Series. These new F Series 2nd Generation models came in black cardboard boxes with dark gray foam rubber inserts and featured Sam Colt's portrait and signature on the lid and end label.
Unlike their first arrangement, Imperato was now responsible for the entire production of Colt black-powder models. "They were all hand-fitted. There was no way to do mass production," explains Imperato. "We had the barrels, cylinders and backstraps cast in Italy (as Forgett had done), but we finished them off in-house. We made the frames, the center pins, nipples, all of the screws, springs, and built every F Series gun at Iver Johnson Arms. We even used the old style color-case hardening method with the charcoal and bone meal, and Colt's exclusive Colt Blue Finish. They turned out pretty good. In fact, I think our finishes were actually better than Colt's single actions being done in Hartford."
Under the subcontractor agreement to produce 2nd Generation percussion models, Imperato's responsibilities were to manufacture the revolvers to Colt's strict specifications, then ship the finished product to its Hartford facilities. Colt's then performed final inspection and shipped the revolvers to distributors.
This is why Colt historical letters for 2nd Generation percussion revolvers contain exactly the same type of information one finds in letters for original percussion models, Single Action Armys and other models.
Somewhat out of historical sequence, Colt's skipped the First and Second Model Dragoons (later introduced in 1980), and following the 1851 Navy and Third Model Dragoon, next brought out the popular 1860 Army model in November, 1978.
Sam Colt designed the original 1860 Army to be nearly the same size as the 1851 Navy, but in .44, with nearly as much punch as a Dragoon. Colt used the same basic frame as the Navy, but with a slightly longer backstrap and grip, a new rebated cylinder (milled larger in diameter approximately three-quarters of an inch forward of the breech to allow for the larger caliber), and a beautifully contoured, round 8-inch barrel. Bearing the same roll-engraved battle scene as the '51 Navy, it was an immediate success.
"Approximately 129,000 Model 1860 revolvers were issued to U.S. troops for Civil War service--several thousand of them equipped with an attachable shoulder stock, an accessory to allow firing the arm as a carbine," says Colt historian and author R. L. Wilson. "The U.S. government purchased more 1860 Army revolvers than any other model of Colt or any other make of black-powder revolver. This was the staple handgun of the Civil War, and played the same role in the Plains Indian wars, until succeeded by the Colt Peacemaker .45...in 1873."
Some 200,500 1860 Armys were manufactured, making it the third-highest production Colt up to that time.
The Colt black-powder 2nd Generation reprise of the 1860 Army remained in production until 1982 and was offered in a variety of models. The original 1860 style with rebated cylinder was manufactured from November 1978 to November 1982; also with an electroless nickel finish in 1982; with a fluted cylinder from July 1980 through October 1981; and in stainless steel from January 1982 to April 1982.
Colt's also produced a number of special edition Army models. One series was commissioned by the Hodgdon Powder Company in 1979 to commemorate the Butterfield Overland Stage. This was limited to 500 guns with a shortened 51⁄2-inch barrel, and came with an extra cylinder in a French book-style case. Another dozen 1860 Armys were finished in bright nickel and fitted with ivory stocks in 1984. A total of 3001 U.S. Cavalry 200th Anniversary double pistol sets, cased with a shoulder stock and accessories, were produced beginning in 1977. In 1979 a series of 500 cased 1860 Army models were built, and in 1980 a special Interstate Edition of 200 guns, making the Army the most varied of the 2nd Generation.
The Colt 1862 Pocket Navy and 1862 Pocket Police were the next additions to the black-powder line, introduced in December 1979 and January 1980, respectively. The last percussion models introduced by Colt's prior to the 1873 Peacemaker, original pocket pistols were scaled down versions of the 1851 Navy and 1860 Army.
Notes Wilson "Both actually appeared in 1861, just months before the inventor's death, Jan. 10, 1862. Stocks and frames were identical on these revolvers, as was their serial range, caliber and number of shots (.36, five-shot rebated cylinder), and barrel lengths, (41⁄2, 51⁄2 and 61⁄2 inches). A few 1862 Police models--approximately 50--were made in the 31⁄2-inch barrel length Trapper version without the loading lever and with a separate brass ramrod."
The 1862 Pocket Police model was distinguished by its semi-fluted and rebated cylinder, round 1860 Army-style barrel and creeping lever for loading. The Pocket Navy featured a rebated round cylinder, roll engraved with stagecoach holdup scene, and octagonal barrel with hinged-type loading lever.
Throughout the storied history of Colt's, there has been a succession of illustrious models, from the innovative Paterson revolvers of the late 1830s to the 1860 Army--the principal sidearm of Civil War Union officers--to the 1873 Peacemaker and Model 1911A1, the most distinguished military sidearm in American history.
One of the more interesting footnotes in the company's story, however, began in 1971, when it made the unprecedented decision to re-introduce a model it had last built in 1873. With the reintroduction of the legendary 1851 Navy--a gun made famous by James Butler "Wild Bill" Hickok--Colt's embarked on an 11-year odyssey that would result in one of the most popular and collectible series the Hartford, Connecticut, armsmaker would ever produce.
The tale of the 2nd Generation Colt black-powder line actually began in the late 1950s with Val Forgett, founder of Navy Arms, and Italian gunmakers Vittorio Gregorelli and Aldo Uberti. They chose the Colt 1851 Navy as the first percussion revolver to be reproduced in Italy in 1958.
After a dozen years and thousands of Colt reproductions, the success of the Italian-made '51 Navy--which Aldo Uberti frequently supplied to filmmaker Sergio Lione and Clint Eastwood for early spaghetti westerns--had finally come to the attention of the company that invented it.
There have been countless tales how Colt's dusted off the old tooling from the 1851 and began manufacturing new guns at Hartford, which would have been very interesting had the tooling not been destroyed when a fire razed most of the factory on Feb. 4, 1864.
As for the tooling used to make the later percussion models produced through 1873, it was simply discarded over the years, so Colt's could never have brought back the 1851 Navy, or any other percussion era model had it not been for Forgett, Uberti and, ultimately, Lou Imperato.
Imperato, who founded Colt Blackpowder Arms Co. in 1993 (which produced the 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder line through 2002), recalls that Forgett sold Colt's the components (rough castings) to build the first 2nd Generation 1851 Navy revolvers, which were completed at the Hartford factory from 1971 through 1973. The first C Series 1851 Navy repros included the now collectible Grant and Lee Navy sets.
However, late in 1973 Colt's decided to seek a new supplier of components and the following year Lou Imperato, its largest American distributor, took over.
The company's enthusiasm for the percussion revolvers was obvious in its decision to place the new Third Model Dragoon on the cover of its 1974 sales catalog.
The Dragoon and Navy models were listed along with the Python, Detective Special, Cobra, Agent, Diamondback, Trooper MKIII, Official Police MKIII, Lawman MKIII, 1873 Peacemaker Single Action Army models, and semi-autos. Unfortunately, labor disputes delayed the Dragoon in 1974, causing Colt's to take the unprecedented step of re-announcing the Dragoon model in 1975, when deliveries actually began.
The relationship with Imperato continued until Colt's discontinued the first series of percussion revolvers in 1976. This, however, was not the end of the black-powder line.
In 1973 Lou Imperato had purchased the Iver Johnson Arms Company in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. A year after Colt's discontinued the black-powder line, Imperato moved the Iver Johnson works to Middlesex, New Jersey, and approached Colt's with the idea of producing an entire line of black-powder pistols, which the Italians had been doing successfully since the late 1950s.
He came in with both barrels blazing, so to speak, reprimanding Colt's management. "[They're] your guns and everyone else is getting rich on them and you're not out there."
He showed them a display of various black-powder models and they were once again intrigued--but as before, had no way of manufacturing. The timing could not have been better for Imperato. He signed a deal with Colt's and Iver Johnson to produce a new line of black-powder models.
It was in Middlesex that all F Series standard production models were manufactured as The Authentic Colt Blackpowder Series. These new F Series 2nd Generation models came in black cardboard boxes with dark gray foam rubber inserts and featured Sam Colt's portrait and signature on the lid and end label.
Unlike their first arrangement, Imperato was now responsible for the entire production of Colt black-powder models. "They were all hand-fitted. There was no way to do mass production," explains Imperato. "We had the barrels, cylinders and backstraps cast in Italy (as Forgett had done), but we finished them off in-house. We made the frames, the center pins, nipples, all of the screws, springs, and built every F Series gun at Iver Johnson Arms. We even used the old style color-case hardening method with the charcoal and bone meal, and Colt's exclusive Colt Blue Finish. They turned out pretty good. In fact, I think our finishes were actually better than Colt's single actions being done in Hartford."
Under the subcontractor agreement to produce 2nd Generation percussion models, Imperato's responsibilities were to manufacture the revolvers to Colt's strict specifications, then ship the finished product to its Hartford facilities. Colt's then performed final inspection and shipped the revolvers to distributors.
This is why Colt historical letters for 2nd Generation percussion revolvers contain exactly the same type of information one finds in letters for original percussion models, Single Action Armys and other models.
Somewhat out of historical sequence, Colt's skipped the First and Second Model Dragoons (later introduced in 1980), and following the 1851 Navy and Third Model Dragoon, next brought out the popular 1860 Army model in November, 1978.
Sam Colt designed the original 1860 Army to be nearly the same size as the 1851 Navy, but in .44, with nearly as much punch as a Dragoon. Colt used the same basic frame as the Navy, but with a slightly longer backstrap and grip, a new rebated cylinder (milled larger in diameter approximately three-quarters of an inch forward of the breech to allow for the larger caliber), and a beautifully contoured, round 8-inch barrel. Bearing the same roll-engraved battle scene as the '51 Navy, it was an immediate success.
"Approximately 129,000 Model 1860 revolvers were issued to U.S. troops for Civil War service--several thousand of them equipped with an attachable shoulder stock, an accessory to allow firing the arm as a carbine," says Colt historian and author R. L. Wilson. "The U.S. government purchased more 1860 Army revolvers than any other model of Colt or any other make of black-powder revolver. This was the staple handgun of the Civil War, and played the same role in the Plains Indian wars, until succeeded by the Colt Peacemaker .45...in 1873."
Some 200,500 1860 Armys were manufactured, making it the third-highest production Colt up to that time.
The Colt black-powder 2nd Generation reprise of the 1860 Army remained in production until 1982 and was offered in a variety of models. The original 1860 style with rebated cylinder was manufactured from November 1978 to November 1982; also with an electroless nickel finish in 1982; with a fluted cylinder from July 1980 through October 1981; and in stainless steel from January 1982 to April 1982.
Colt's also produced a number of special edition Army models. One series was commissioned by the Hodgdon Powder Company in 1979 to commemorate the Butterfield Overland Stage. This was limited to 500 guns with a shortened 51⁄2-inch barrel, and came with an extra cylinder in a French book-style case. Another dozen 1860 Armys were finished in bright nickel and fitted with ivory stocks in 1984. A total of 3001 U.S. Cavalry 200th Anniversary double pistol sets, cased with a shoulder stock and accessories, were produced beginning in 1977. In 1979 a series of 500 cased 1860 Army models were built, and in 1980 a special Interstate Edition of 200 guns, making the Army the most varied of the 2nd Generation.
The Colt 1862 Pocket Navy and 1862 Pocket Police were the next additions to the black-powder line, introduced in December 1979 and January 1980, respectively. The last percussion models introduced by Colt's prior to the 1873 Peacemaker, original pocket pistols were scaled down versions of the 1851 Navy and 1860 Army.
Notes Wilson "Both actually appeared in 1861, just months before the inventor's death, Jan. 10, 1862. Stocks and frames were identical on these revolvers, as was their serial range, caliber and number of shots (.36, five-shot rebated cylinder), and barrel lengths, (41⁄2, 51⁄2 and 61⁄2 inches). A few 1862 Police models--approximately 50--were made in the 31⁄2-inch barrel length Trapper version without the loading lever and with a separate brass ramrod."
The 1862 Pocket Police model was distinguished by its semi-fluted and rebated cylinder, round 1860 Army-style barrel and creeping lever for loading. The Pocket Navy featured a rebated round cylinder, roll engraved with stagecoach holdup scene, and octagonal barrel with hinged-type loading lever.
Here is a pic of my third generation 1861 Navy Custer Commerative. It has no Colt signature on the backstrap. All of my books say it should have a silver finish, but as you can see it's blue. Isent Henry repeating arms a question about this and I got this reply. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. Mr. Imperato
passed away in 2007, so it took me some time to find an answer for you. You
have the right gun. Some were done in silver and some were blued. The
blued version you have is the more rare of the two. Merry Christmas and a
Happy New Year. To me it's a real Colt.
passed away in 2007, so it took me some time to find an answer for you. You
have the right gun. Some were done in silver and some were blued. The
blued version you have is the more rare of the two. Merry Christmas and a
Happy New Year. To me it's a real Colt.
The Colt revolvers that Jovino produced for Colt where under the Colt banner and are considered to be Colts. Jovino was commissioned by Colt to reproduce these guns. And all paper work and warranty cards are Colt even though they were produced in Italy.
Mark formally General Manager Continental Arms Corporation
697 Fifth Ave. New York
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mark formally General Manager Continental Arms Corporation
697 Fifth Ave. New York
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Please remember that back around the 1980's Colt started reproduction of the Army and Navy Black Powder revolvers. Colt could not keep up with the demand and for what every reason Jovino got the contract.
Even your cap box can be questioned who produced it.
Good luck
Mark
C.A.C.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Even your cap box can be questioned who produced it.
Good luck
Mark
C.A.C.
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I don't know where you got your information, but it is only partially correct. The major parts for the 2nd generation percussion Colts were made in Italy, and shipped "in the rough" to the US. Jovino then finished these castings and assembled the guns in New Jersey.....as far as I know, New Jersey is not a part of Italy, despite Imperato's Italian surname.
The only 2nd or 3rd generation Colts that were assembled in Italy were the factory prototypes.
In answer to the original question: It depends on who is asking the question. For the average person, the answer is yes. However, there are those for whom the only real colts are those made by Sam Colt himself. The true answer to this question is actually somewhere in between.
The only 2nd or 3rd generation Colts that were assembled in Italy were the factory prototypes.
In answer to the original question: It depends on who is asking the question. For the average person, the answer is yes. However, there are those for whom the only real colts are those made by Sam Colt himself. The true answer to this question is actually somewhere in between.
Not to drag this into a spat, but the real determining factor, as I understand it, is whether the firearm will letter from Colt. In terms of actually lettering from the factory, only 1st (original) and 2nd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers will letter as real Colts. The 3rd Gen. Signature Series revolvers will not letter and thus are not considered real Colts despite the fact that many of the castings for both generations were made in Italy by the same sub. and many of the workers from the 2nd Gen. production apparently worked on the 3rd Gen. as well. The Signature Series was only a licensing agreement between Colt and the Signature Series manufacture. The Colt factory nothing to do with the 3rd Gen. revolver series.
I greatly recommend the purchase of Dennis Russell's current book on 2nd and 3rd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers. Dennis is generally accepted as the "go to source" on 2nd Gen. revolvers and goes into great depth on what constitutes a real Colt percussion revolver. Keep in mind that there is still confusion as the whether the 2nd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers are real Colts!!! Again, Dennis has done EXTENSIVE personal research on these issues.
Hopes this helps,
Mike in Alaska
I greatly recommend the purchase of Dennis Russell's current book on 2nd and 3rd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers. Dennis is generally accepted as the "go to source" on 2nd Gen. revolvers and goes into great depth on what constitutes a real Colt percussion revolver. Keep in mind that there is still confusion as the whether the 2nd Gen. Colt percussion revolvers are real Colts!!! Again, Dennis has done EXTENSIVE personal research on these issues.
Hopes this helps,
Mike in Alaska
QUOTE=MARKFAIN;762159]Ok where did you get your information from.
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FYI I got this information directly from Anthony Imperato when he was doing the marketing for his father at their Brooklyn factory. Apart from that, the trouble in determining whether the 3rd generation Colts are "real Colts" is due to the fact that when the bean counters at Colt forced the company to drop the manufacture and sale of the 2nd generation percussion Colts, it left Lou Imperato, the sub-contractor who actually made these guns, in the lurch. It almost bankrupted him. So, to prevent a massive and expensive lawsuit, Colt let him produce and market what became known as the Signature Series Colts.
However, there are still those in power at Colt who still resent this and bad mouth this every chance they get. This, of course, falls into the hands of purists and bad-mothers---most of whom do not even own a Colt, or even a gun, of any kind.
One of the resultant problem with this series is with their serial numbers. One cannot get any serial number information for these guns. It is thought by some that this is because of a dispute between Colt Blackpowder and the mother company about royalties. I do know that the serial number records were destroyed when the Colt Blackpowder Company ceased operations. However, a former employee was able to salvage the shipping records that contain the serial numbers. He is waiting for someone to buy them from him.
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FYI I got this information directly from Anthony Imperato when he was doing the marketing for his father at their Brooklyn factory. Apart from that, the trouble in determining whether the 3rd generation Colts are "real Colts" is due to the fact that when the bean counters at Colt forced the company to drop the manufacture and sale of the 2nd generation percussion Colts, it left Lou Imperato, the sub-contractor who actually made these guns, in the lurch. It almost bankrupted him. So, to prevent a massive and expensive lawsuit, Colt let him produce and market what became known as the Signature Series Colts.
However, there are still those in power at Colt who still resent this and bad mouth this every chance they get. This, of course, falls into the hands of purists and bad-mothers---most of whom do not even own a Colt, or even a gun, of any kind.
One of the resultant problem with this series is with their serial numbers. One cannot get any serial number information for these guns. It is thought by some that this is because of a dispute between Colt Blackpowder and the mother company about royalties. I do know that the serial number records were destroyed when the Colt Blackpowder Company ceased operations. However, a former employee was able to salvage the shipping records that contain the serial numbers. He is waiting for someone to buy them from him.
One could argue that only the Colt's designed during Samuel Colt's lifetime were real Colt's since he had nothing to do with later designs. I speak with tongue in cheek of course. My personal opinion is that anything authorized to bear the Colt name is a real Colt but some are more desirable/collectible than others.
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