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Customary for buyer to pay for dealer fees to process gun sale?

4.2K views 49 replies 23 participants last post by  Bigfifty  
#1 ·
Here in California any gun sale has to go through a licensed gun dealer. One in my area charges $135. There's also a $25 FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee) transfer fee of $25 (Dealer Record of Sale). It may also be necessary to pay for an $8 lock.

My question is whether it's customary for the seller to require that the buyer or seller to pay for these fees? Or perhaps they're split?
 
#3 ·
I think $135 is ridiculously high but I also don't live in CA where pretty much everything is more expensive. You have to pay to play.

In my area gun stores charge from $20-$30 locally to handle a transfer...more than that closer to the more urban areas. I guess it might matter what their overhead is plus accepting liability to inventory (even for a short time) for a firearm that isn't their property.
 
#50 ·
I totally agree with the first paragraph, however, dealers in this area are charging $50 to ship or receive ($35 from some of the private FFL dealers, but I don't trust 'em. Get a CCP, and ditch the $25 rip-off from the ATF&E
 
#5 ·
As a dealer, I see transfers as a disruptive hassle. If somebody buys a gun on the Internet and has it transferred through our store, I have to spend a total of at least half an hour dealing with receiving, unpacking, logging in/out, calling the buyer, helping the buyer fill out the transfer form, doing the background check etc., and including the small talk with the buyer it will usually take much longer. Still, I won't make a dime on the actual gun sale. People are complaining about the high transfer fees, but they don't see the work the dealer's put into the transfer. One guy even thought that FFLs are required by law to do free transfers for anybody who wants it. Many dealers will charge a very low fee to do it, but the reason for this is simply that they want people to come to the store, and hopefully buy something from them. All in all, the transfer fee is not the cash cow you may think it is. To many dealers, it's basically a service they provide to get more traffic in the store.

With that said, $135 sound very high but the "special regulations" and extra paperwork required in CA could very well be the reason.
 
#7 ·
For any FFL outside of CA to be able to ship to CA he has to register with CA DOJ to become an authorized shipper. Then when he ships a gun to CA he has to get each gun approved before he ships it. This requires more work for both the shipping and recieving FFL's. So FFL's that are willing and able to ship to CA are likely to charge a higher fee as well as the recieving FFL charging a higher fee.
 
#8 ·
Like taxes, business does not pay them, they collect them and forward them on.
 
#10 ·
Here the dealer takes the info off the 4473 and transfers it on the computor to the state for a background check. It only takes minutes. The state gets $10 and the dealer his fee which seems to be $20 to $40 in my area. If the dealer doesn't have computor service he can just call in the information the state wants. What hurts the dealer is the wait for instant check which can be anywhere fom minutes to over an hour.

I never go into the gun shops that charge big dollars for a transfer, they make the bueacrats to costly to do business in my opinion.

Jim
 
#12 · (Edited)
There are many lower cost shops. You just went to a high priced shop.

When you buy a car, the buyer pays taxes, license, insurance, etc.

When you buy a gun, you pay the fees also, unless the seller charges more and then says "all fees included."

But go to a different store. You'll get a better price.
dc

In a private party transfer, that is one California resident sells a gun to another CA resident where they both appear at the shop of the same ffl, the fee is limited by law to $35, $25 to the state and $10 to the dealer, and they will make you buy a lock (sometimes). And I believe that law says something about the ffl "must" or "shall" do that transfer. However, many refuse to do so and I can't imagine the state doing anything about that refusal.
 
#13 ·
The thread has drifted a bit from the OP's question.

If it is a face-to-face sale and the sale has to go through a dealer, which is how I understand the OP's description, obviously the seller can't require anything the buyer doesn't agree to, so you have to make that part of the deal in some way. Since you both have to go to the dealer and know his fees, that's a no-brainer.

If you buy long-distance or from out of state, it's on you. Someone who offers a gun for sale nationally online can't be expected to eat dealer-specific expenses he can't know about; if you buy the gun, in an auction like on Gunbroker, for example, what's in the auction description is the deal, usually including provisions regarding shipping costs. State and local dealer fees are your responsibility.
 
#17 ·
To address the OP's question: If you are having a gun shipped to the dealer and it's not a private party transfer where both of you show up to fill out the paperwork and exchange the money, it is up to the buyer to pay any and all fees. The buyer should also expect to pay the shipping charges.
In my area some retail FFL's charge as much as $100 to receive a gun, plus the $35 DROS fees which are standard everywhere. Other's charge less so I would shop around. Regarding the gun lock, unless you can show a receipt that the lock was purchased in the last 30 days, you have to purchase another one. Most sell cheap locks for $5-$8. Not a big deal. I've got a box full of them.
To all those who offered unhelpful and irrelevant answers like "move", there are a lot of reasons that those of us that live under a jackbooted government stay. Maybe you should open a new topic so the California bashing can begin.
 
#18 ·
The requirement that a lock be provided is a requirement on the FFL, not the buyer. The law says the FFL SHALL PROVIDE a lock/storage device. It does not say "if the buyer will buy one from you." The dealer can refuse to transfer of course, at which point you will have to find another FFL willing to do it. But if the FFL does the transfer, it is their responsibility to provide the lock, not to sell a lock. That's why many dealers either get free locks in bulk or buy them in bulk for cheap.
 
#21 ·
This is another law that is entirely for the birds. I can't remember what the text really says, but it's obviously interpreted differently depending on who you ask. I asked my ATF agent for clarification on this, and what ATF really requires is that the dealer keeps locks available. The agent actually said that having one lock in the store at any given time satisfies their requirements, and if somebody decides to get a lock with his gun you sell it to him and get a new one to keep in stock. Sale or transfer only didn't matter, it was just a matter of keeping locks available. When I asked what they would do if they didn't find a lock when doing an audit, he said "Unless I find any serious violations, I'd just have you run to Walmart and get one". I could tell that the agent was fully aware that requiring locks for every gun would be a huge waste of money, as nobody really uses them.

However, I guess some dealers have made a business out of this, telling their customers that they are required to buy a lock with every gun they buy. I might look into that :D
 
#22 ·
Olle, let me ask you this. Under the context of this thread, where OP was seeking a face to face transfer where no shipping is involved. What is the cost to the FFL to do the transfer. I'm guessing the shop employee that handles the transfer is being paid hourly to help customers. All other aspects of overhead are going to exist whether the transfer is done, or the clerk is helping another customer, or is sitting there waiting for someone to walk in the door. So other than any potential fee that the state charges, 100% of the rest of the price of the transfer is profit. I understand it's minor and clearly a business couldn't be supported solely on transfers, but in OP's case where a face to face transfer is needed, the amount charged is literally the amount the shop wants to profit off the transfer.
 
#25 · (Edited)
......What is the cost to the FFL to do the transfer. .....

........the amount charged is literally the amount the shop wants to profit off the transfer.
I'm sure Olle will comment from his perspective, but I'll jump in here because I used to work quite a bit with an FFL who got very exasperated with exactly that question, because it is usually asked with a hostile undertone of "how do you JUSTIFY the fee, you hardly DO anything and have no EXPENSES?"

First of all, even if doing the transfer doesn't cost the shop anything extra and creates no expense they wouldn't have anyway, the fee isn't profit, it's just revenue. At the end of the day, most small businesses consider themselves happy if their profit is stable in the single digit percentage of revenue. And gunshops are almost all small businesses.

Second, a transfer is not a product like a gun, which the shop buys at a cost and sells at a mark-up. It's a professional service. You make an appointment with a lawyer, talk to him for 20 minutes, and he charges you 250 bucks; has nothing to do with what it costs him to sit there and talk to you. It does have to do with the lease for his fancy office, his secretary's salary, paying off his law school tuition, insurance, and THEN maybe how much he can get away with valuing his time, compared to what other lawyers charge. It's the same with the FFL. Trying to understand a fee with a cost-profit calculation for the individual transaction misses the point.
 
#23 ·
Here in the People's Republic the state requires handguns be equipped with a state-approved locking device when sold. The lock that comes with new guns don't qualify except maybe one or two. The law doesn't require the dealer provide the lock...if you have your own that satisfies the statute it's ok. The rub is that some dealers take the law literally and won't let you take the handgun out of the store without the lock being in place...some just put a lock in the box (after selling it to you) and away you go. I know of at least one dealer that says the cable lock that handguns come with now satisfies the state law...some insist it doesn't.

The last time I picked up two handguns at a local dealer...really fine people...they take the law seriously. I used one lock which was attached to one pistol at a time...I locked it in my car and went back for the other pistol then used the lock on it before taking it.

The whole system is rife for misinterpretation and someone will get their giblets caught in a vice if the state actually audits some of these dealers.
 
#24 ·
Just so we are all clear, here is the language of the law (18 USC 922(z)):

(z)Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—(1)In general.—Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921(a)(34)) for that handgun.

(2)Exceptions.—Paragraph (1) shall not apply to—(A)(i)the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States, a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, of a handgun; or

(ii)the transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed by an entity referred to in clause (i) of a handgun for law enforcement purposes (whether on or off duty); or


(B)the transfer to, or possession by, a rail police officer directly employed by or contracted by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State of a handgun for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);

(C)the transfer to any person of a handgun listed as a curio or relic by the Secretary pursuant to section 921(a)(13); or

(D)the transfer to any person of a handgun for which a secure gun storage or safety device is temporarily unavailable for the reasons described in the exceptions stated in section 923(e), if the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer delivers to the transferee within 10 calendar days from the date of the delivery of the handgun to the transferee a secure gun storage or safety device for the handgun.


I get that some FFL's and some ATF agents will interpret it how they like. But this is what a court will use to make determinations if it ever becomes an issue. (And yes, I think the law is crap).
 
#29 ·
In my state under our law it is legal for a private citizen to sell to another citizen at a "GUN SHOW" If the seller makes a call to instant check in selling the gun. A $10 fee is charged to a credit card and the paper work done in this process is given a state approval number and must be kept for 3 years. There is no reason a private citizen should not be able to do the same thing away from a gun show but the bueacrats created dealer involvement anyway by forcing sellers to use a dealer at all other times.

I go to a gunshow with all kinds of new and used guns on 100 of tables and only have to pay $10 on a background check.
 
#28 ·
Friend is buying a gun today and he made the deal with the private seller as to which FFL to go to and it was decided over cost of the paperwork. Seller mentioned a $35 dealer fee when just down the street a dealer would do it for $20. The buyer agreed to this fee and now owns a great Colt 1911. If it were me and the seller demanded using his dealer then I would ask him to split the fee in negotiations of the deal.

On a side note here I can understand dealers hating to do paperwork, the state could make it easier and time saving by a simple use of the CCW as a background check. Show your permit, register the gun and take it home, the sherriff that issued it has approved your gun ownership allready.
 
#30 ·
Here in the People's Republic of Maryland if a citizen wants to rent a table at a gun show to sell some of his privately owned firearms, he has to get a temporary permit from the state to do so legally. In other words...it's a fundraiser for the state. All regulated firearms (handguns and "assault weapons") still have to go through the state before they can be transferred.

To complete a transfer, you have to go through a FFL holder or go to a State Police barrack to have them do the paperwork and background check. You still have to wait a week before legally making the transfer.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Last gun I bought about a week ago I met the seller at the FFL and the FFL entered the gun into his books while I made out the 4473. After I filled it out the FFL got on line and entered all the necessary info in less than five minutes and luckily there was nobody ahead of me in the system. It took them about 5 minutes. Entire deal took 15 minutes and I paid $20 to the FFL and $10 to the state. While I waited I looked to see if the FFL had anything new I wanted. I like the guy and have bought a lot of guns from him and send him business when I can.

The seller liked him too and handled guns during the wait. It's nice that the FFL does transfers because he does transfers of the guns he sold me when I find a buyer, he still gets a cut on my sale.
 
#33 ·
Yep, the part you actually saw took 15 minutes. Then look at what I wrote in one of my previous posts and you'll see that there's more to it. When everything works 100% it's pretty easy to send your FFL to the shipping dealer, receive the gun, unpack it, log it in, contact the customer to let him know, transfer the gun and log the gun out to him. All small things that are easy to do, but it still adds up. Also, that's the ideal case. It's not unusual for the customer to call or come in several times to ask if the gun is here yet, that you have to fool with shipping issues, incorrect tracking numbers, FFLs who forgot to include a copy of their FFL etc, and many times you'll have the buyer lingering at the counter to show you his new acquisition, ask you questions about it etc. In short: It does take more time than you think, and time is money to most business owners.
 
#35 ·
I'm lucky to have a local gun store that's happy to do transfers for me at a reasonable cost...but it's not something they offer unless you're a good customer...not just someone who finds their phone number and asks for it.

In a busy store, does the owner or manager prefer doing a transfer where they get a small fee for doing it, or the exact same thing regarding time for a customer buying or trying to buy something from their inventory where some real profit can be shown.

Like I said...I'm fortunate the local gun store is good to me...and I am for them should they have something in inventory that interests me. When they get in a used Colt they call me to give them some advice of what a reasonable selling price might be since the value guides aren't always accurate.
 
#39 ·
I agree Olle that all business should be done in a proffesional manner, you can't leave an opening for the bueacrats to make life miserable. It's why I track the gun as its shipped so I am there to open the package and inspect it. If the FFL opens it then the seller can say he damaged it. I respect the people I do business with too much to let BS get into the deal. I think I have earned a good customer status from the FFL, we even have lunch now and then....if I buy.;)