The last shipment of 5K bullets I ordered from MBC shipped this week. Had to pay up front three months ago but their prices are reasonable and it’s not like I was totally without bullets for reloading. Lots of things we buy have upfront payments, some with waiting times in years, I try to stay away from those.

 

Oh my God, don’t you just wish we could handle things like Gus and Call did!🤠🤠🤠
I agree that is some very low down business sense!

 

Agree completely with you Coz! Using the customers money to purchase supplies and help manage overhead expenses. Deception!
Vic

 

Harley Davidson used our deposits for over a year when they were hot. They all built big dealerships also.
Now they can't keep them open.

 

That's baloney. You order something from a small business that isn't a customer unique item (like a holster, hand made guitar, etc), they shouldn't charge til they're ready to ship. It's basically "out of stock". When it's IN stock, they can sell it to a customer that will pay right then. They're asking to hold your money, and you hold the risk they don't go under. Nope. Even the Bauchman holster I ordered in Nov he said to give him my credit card number, but he would not run it until the day he was starting work. A week later, it's in the mail. Most good custom items sellers ask for a hold deposit. Shiloh wanted $100 down, rest when the gun was ready 4 years later. Ford just did that with their new Broncos too. Any small vendor asking for up front payment is full of it. It's like Crowdsourcing, where you get the suckers to finance your business operating expenses to make a product. Before you've even made it.

 

I've seen other Stupid Vendor Tricks this week. One was an auction company I've never used. I won a gun, called the next day and paid, as per their rules of pay within 24 hrs. I got a shipping tracking number that afternoon, good so far. Then it never got "picked up" by the shipper. 3 days went by and I finally emailed them in case I got the wrong shipping number. Quick reply said "Oh no no no....we won't ship until we have been paid for ALL the lots we sold that auction!" Can you believe? I'm supposed to pay early, then wait on the late ones????

 

Here's another one, seller of vintage gun parts: Vintage Winchester SRC Walnut Front Forearm 1892, 1894 Used. | eBay
He says "If you make an offer on one of our items and I accept a cheaper price for the item payment is expected immediately. If payment is not made with in one hour of me accepting the transaction will be canceled and the item will be relisted. You will be blocked [blah blah rant rant]"

So what if I click my offer to him at 6PM on a Saturday. He wakes up at 7AM Saturday (5AM my time) and clicks "accept offer" then starts a ONE HOUR CLOCK? I'm supposed to KNOW when he's going to accept my offer?! The guy ain't thinkin.....

 

There was a Class 3 dealer doing the same thing a number of years ago (Post '86) with M16 lowers.
He would take the money, order the stripped lower and while waiting on the paperwork to go through ATF shuffle, he would spend money on the parts to complete the lower he had in hand or buy complete guns in his own name. He would have to sell another gun before he could buy new parts. A good friend had to threaten the dealer with telling the ATF he was in possession of a registered lower that was NOT in his name.

 

Thing that amazes me is there are lots of bullet companies. Nothing unique about Oregon trail other than I use to like shooting them. The real reason I called was thinking they had a error on their ordering page. A 300 count box of bullets or a 700ct box of bullets or like numbers that made no sense to me. Been buying bullets, just like the rest of us, for decades in boxes of 500 and 1000. When you look further people were saying the new company OT Bullet cut prices ( Rim Rock Bullets, Montana). Look further and may be they didn't cut prices at all, just cut the amount of bullets they ship.

I don't have any more time to waste looking into the actual prices of their bullets. Or time for them as a regular supplier. Sure killed the idea of building a bunch of BP loads for other folks though.

What I do know is people come and go in the gun world. Some I like doing business with and others I don't care to do business with. I made some long hauls, with a big stack of green to exchange for lead, to Baker City, OR. I won't be doing that to Poulson Montana. They weren't concerned one bit. Neither am I.

 

just all sounds like a hustle. I run a business and couldn't survive in my line of work operating similar to these self righteous players. I have become really selective of the people who I do business with and who I offer my services to. Morals, handshakes and chivalry are almost things of the past.

 

back a few months ago i had a really good experience with Matt's bullets. I have no affiliation with him or his company, but my transaction was prompt, precise and trouble free. He was up front with his terms and his products were up to snuff for me. I used oregon back when i started handloading bp Marlin 32-40's years ago. Back then was back then....my how things change.

 

Sad ain't it ?

 

A few hundred dollars? I just bought $6k of kitchen appliance and yup they charged my card. 6 weeis for delivery. Lucky and happy to get them.

 

And this is how "they" know they got ya....whatever the product. You float them a 6 week loan AND feel lucky and happy about it.

 

A company that’s essentially operating on a constant backorder should take the payment info and charge the card upon the shipment. It’s how it’s done. It could be a simple case of .. if nobody complains we can go ahead and charge /take payment and not have to put forth the effort of the employment costs/work it takes to keep track of whose paid, when to charge, etc

furniture/ appliances/ things that are grouped in a unique way, customized ordered products, things not easily shipped, or order cancellations not easy to sell to someone else at full profit , yes , a down payment, full payment upfront can be or is required.
Bullets, and many many other standard factory produced items of an identical nature, where there is no loss of revenue if an order is cancelled and the item(s)- product can be easily redirected for sell.. those businesses don’t take payment until order fulfillment is complete for shipment.
thw distinction being a payment as a commitment to purchase versus a payment to provide equity to enact the process. ... (Using somebody else’s money )
... I was not an attorney , but I’ve played one at the dinner table.

 

Cozmo, were you able to buy similar bullets from another supplier that had them in stock ?
What if two months from now, all or most bullet manufacturers are still on a 30-60 day back order ?
I believe that legally, if a credit card is charged that the vendor has to fulfil an order within 30 days or give the customer the option of a refund & cancellation, or leaving the order open.

Yes, you have the right to be indignant about a vendor using your money to run their business for a couple of months. You have the moral high ground.

Maybe Oregon Trail Bullets was hurt financially by the Covid crisis and is struggling to get ramped up to normal levels again, and the paid in advance orders are what are keeping them from going under entirely ?

You are in the right, but you may not get the bullets for a while anyway. I wrote a deposit check for $10,000 last month (and it was cashed) for a car that won't even be built until the middle of next month and won't even be delivered until June. It was either that or wait until the middle of summer and hope a dealer within 500 miles would have one with the options I want in stock.

The world is different right now. Hopefully we will see some semblance of normalcy again by the end of the year.

P.S. There still was no excuse for them giving you a bad attitude when you called.

 

Many bullet manufacturers are doing this. Go visit Bayou

 

Ever heard how they boil a frog?

Change is part of life. It happens. Things also change because we allow them to change. Covid is bump in the road for humanity. The new norm? Hardly. Yes, things will/have changed and we'll have new norms from the exposure. Wearing a mask makes sense. Vaccines make sense. The cost of ammo, powder and primers makes no sense. Using Covid as an excuse on how you run your business? Acceptable for a restaurant? Sure.

We pay up front for (some) custom pieces, and endure long waits because it is reasonable for one off pieces of art, be it a holster, a saddle, a long awaited car or your newest remodel. Deposits are the norm for a big ticket item. $10k or $2M. 10% down is earnest money on big ticket items. Asking. "are you serious?"

Bullets and surly sales people are not in any of those categories. Well, at least not in my world. People generally will do what they find acceptable or what they are forced into doing, if it isn't too painful.

I don't "need" any bullets, powder or primers. And I didn't need any when I bought what I have in the shop currently.

I give to charity when I have the money and feel the need is there (there is always someone in need). That doesn't mean I like being taken advantage of, or want someone reaching into my pocket without permission.

I simply voted with my wallet. Everyone has the right to make their own decision on what they find acceptable.

My preference is to simply not allow myself to be put into the pot.

 

Ever heard how they boil a frog?

Change is part of life. It happens. Things also change because we allow them to change. Covid is bump in the road for humanity. The new norm? Hardly. Yes, things will/have changed and we'll have new norms from the exposure. Wearing a mask makes sense. Vaccines make sense. The cost of ammo, powder and primers makes no sense. Using Covid as an excuse on how you run your business? Acceptable for a restaurant? Sure.

We pay up front for (some) custom pieces, and endure long waits because it is reasonable for one off pieces of art, be it a holster, a saddle, a long awaited car or your newest remodel. Deposits are the norm for a big ticket item. $10k or $2M. 10% down is earnest money on big ticket items. Asking. "are you serious?"

Bullets and surly sales people are not in any of those categories. Well, at least not in my world. People generally will do what they find acceptable or what they are forced into doing, if it isn't too painful.

I don't "need" any bullets, powder or primers. And I didn't need any when I bought what I have in the shop currently.

I give to charity when I have the money and feel the need is there (there is always someone in need). That doesn't mean I like being taken advantage of, or want someone reaching into my pocket without permission.

I simply voted with my wallet. Everyone has the right to make their own decision on what they find acceptable.

My preference is to simply not allow myself to be put into the pot.

My thoughts exactly. I have a list of gougers, certain businesses, who will not get my business or positive recommendation.

 

Waiting times for bullets aren't really a new thing, depending on the vendor. I think these are mostly small operations and can easily get behind on orders. Waiting up to several weeks for anything but a few of the most common types wasn't ever unusual. I can understand pre-charging a card for something that is being produced specifically to your order, which may or may not be the case for bullets depending on the style/type etc. Usually the high volume casters have certain types that they always try to keep in stock, but other types may only be produced in batches or runs to fill actual orders. In that case, I can see them wanting to pre-charge.

 

Two reloading equip related case studies, one from the past, one from 2021.
I used to buy from Dardas Cast Bullets from 2010s until he shut down a year ago. You would order and not pay until it was ready to ship. Might be a week, might be a month, but then you'd have to pay when it was going in the mail.
Huntington Dies - Obscure brass ordered mid Jan. I did not have to pay but gave my credit card info. March 3rd they ran the change, and I got a shipping notification.

THAT is what is expected with reloading. These vendors cashing in on everyone's ammo panic can expect to go out of business soon, when the supply chain starts working again and/or the hoarders die off.

 

45, 44, 40 cal lead bullets with typical lube, aren't anything unusual for a legitimate commercial bullet caster. So nothing special there. The refund only took a few days. Slower than it took to debit my card for sure.

Transaction Refund from RIM ROCK BULLETS for $180.00 (USD) aka Oregon Trail Bullets
Transaction Refund from RIM ROCK BULLETS for $302.00 (USD)

Rim Rock Bullets, Inc.
Polson, MT
We are trying to get orders out the door with in SIX to EIGHT weeks.

All Bullet Sales are Final.

I thought the topic interesting enough for a discussion. Wasn't looking for anyone to take sides. Make your own decisions on what you find acceptable.

 

Cozmo, I think your 100% right on all your point's. I hate the game these shippers are playing. It's not just gun / ammo related, it's everywhere with this. Parts and tools are the same way right now. Items in stock ready to ship. Cards charged and 3 weeks later no tracking numbers. You call them and you get Oh that item comes directly from the manufacturer. I didn't need them yesterday, but because I wanted to wait for them isn't why I ordered from these shippers.

 

I don't want to go political here so hopefully this isn't taken that way.

20+ years ago I was teaching at a well known firearms school. On one of the class room chalk boards was a sketch a frog in a pot which the obvious question.

I am surprised that anyone in the gun world doesn't recognize how slowly "they" turn up the heat. And who "they" might actually be.

I pondered this bullet buy a few days before calling the company back and asking for a refund. I was a little embarrassed to do actually ask for a refund and having to mention that was not how I was use to doing business for a bullet buy. If I had been given even a modicum of understanding and respect (flower child and all) I might have even let the whole thing slide and kept the order on file.

But telling me I could send cash instead or that the credit card info was secure or the real deal breaker, "that is how we do business" finally did get my attention. I simply choose not to do business in that manner.

I've paid more than my share of things up front. I have a very long list going back decades and 10s of thousands of dollars. Most of them totally custom pieces of one sort of another. Damn few have ever lived up to or exceeded my expectations. I can only think of 3 off hand and all of those were months if not a year or longer late from what was originally quoted.

One of the best was a 15K$ buy in. Well know firearms company that still to this day claims they have never had a return. Total BS of course because what I got was trash. Nothing like what I ordered and almost a year's wait. 9 months longer than quoted. Seller's answer to the delivered item? "Artist's interpretation". Ya when I order 40 lpi and get 20lpi....it is an interpretation alright...a BS one.

The company owner, refused the return...flatly refused it and had it sent back to me unopened. Call me a little gun shy when anyone starts saying, "no returns/ no refunds" and wants money up front. From contractors to saddle makers....it is receipt for disaster in my experience.

 

I spent some time last weekend trying to find a supplier that had 230 grn. rn. lead 45 acp bullets. None had them in stock. The best I could do was find a company that said 6 - 8 week wait. I did email them to ask if they would charge me as soon as I placed the order or wait until they shipped. They did respond and said" We are not Amazon. We don't have the computer software to do that. we have to charge you when you place your order."
I really do not like this for a few reasons. It really was a red flag to me as I do recall a big famous furniture co. that went out of business was taking orders right up until they locked the doors. I have no idea if this company will be in existence in 6-8 weeks. I have no idea if they are taking orders that they have no intensions of ever filling. Am I getting scammed?

So I have to ask does anyone know of any distributor that has lead 45 cal. projectiles currently in stock? I need to load some in 45acp and in 45 LC to see how my new convertible will paper.

 

Call back and say "I'm sorry, I am not going to front your risk in these hard times. I can't tie up my money on the off chance you will remain in business and actually ship my bullets in two months. I've also told all my friends about your business practices. We'll be shopping elsewhere."

 

The good news is that if you use a credit card, you have the protection against a vendor charging the card and never delivering.

Playing devil's advocate here, but many, many small businesses are suffering due to Covid. They may have been shut down for a while, and during that time bills continued to accumulate. They may have lost employees who found other work after a forced layoff or furlough. They may be being squeezed by their suppliers.

If everybody takes a hard line against some business practices that we wouldn't tolerate prior to the China Virus, many of the suppliers that we would like to buy from may not be around much longer. And you know what happens when there is no competition. I am not suggesting that anyone be taken advantage of, but maybe think about cutting some people some slack. At least until they have been proven to be sniveling weasels and undeserving of it.
That is the "charity" that I give to.

 

All it takes is a big box with their efficiencies to put these little suckers out of business. A big company that casts on an industrial scale selling to Midway. Most mom-pop businesses either go out of business by being dominated by a Walmart, Best Buy, PetCo, Home Depot.....OR - they give better customer service and product. Cast bullets being treated like diamonds?! They can get bent, I'll go back to casting.